The Starting Five

[EagleManiac]

27 minutes ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

So you think Max came back as a reigning 2-time All American and is going to co-sign playing less minutes in his final year than he did in his two previous years? Interesting take… not sure ORU would be able to get any player to choose to come back to school in the future if they see that happen. “Say no to the NBA and say no to the transfer portal so you can come back and play less!”

Minute management is very popular, especially at the highest levels of the game. I seriously doubt Max would have any problem with a minute restriction. He may even welcome it - his biggest fear at this point should be heading into next year's draft with a nagging injury. Staying productive AND healthy are both equally important at this point. 

[ORU40]

9 minutes ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

So you think Max came back as a reigning 2-time All American and is going to co-sign playing less minutes in his final year than he did in his two previous years? Interesting take… not sure ORU would be able to get any player to choose to come back to school in the future if they see that happen. “Say no to the NBA and say no to the transfer portal so you can come back and play less!”

Yes I do! Max didn't say no to the NBA, the NBA told him he would not be drafted because he has areas of his game he needs to improve, like defense and ball handling. If the NBA was only about shooting Max would have been a 1st round draft pick either of the last 2 years.

I absolutely think Max would be agreeable to slightly less minutes if it meant it allowed him to improve in the area's he knows  he needs to based on the NBA feedback he's gotten the last 2 off seasons. And if those slightly reduced minutes help keep him healthy and better able to help/carry the team in the post season to a better outcome then last year I'm sure he would see the benefit of that, he's a smart kid. How many kids are going to come back if they were to see(god forbid) a 2 time All-American get injured late in a 25 point blow out against an NAIA team when he's only still on the court to pad his scoring stats. I also don't think he came back to lose in the Summit semi's by 20, because he's played 38-40 minutes a game with a lingering injury, had been beat up all season and was probably pretty well worn down.

I definitely think a lot of players will notice if the teams best player came back and accepted a slightly different role, improved his NBA or overseas stock by rounding out his entire game rather than just being a one dimensional shooter and the team improved and won 20 games and got back to the big dance. There's a lot more to the game then playing as many minutes as possible  just for volume shooting!

[Old Titan]

30 minutes ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

So you think Max came back as a reigning 2-time All American and is going to co-sign playing less minutes in his final year than he did in his two previous years? Interesting take… not sure ORU would be able to get any player to choose to come back to school in the future if they see that happen. “Say no to the NBA and say no to the transfer portal so you can come back and play less!”

In what seems like a vanishing character trait these days, some guys are actually willing to do what’s best for the team and gives them the best chance at winning.

Max strikes me as one of those kinds of guys… 

 

[GoldenEagleFan]

4 hours ago, Old Titan said:

Max strikes me as one of those kinds of guys… 

 

No argument here. I definitely believe Max puts himself over the team. But like what was said earlier, the NBA said no to Max, Max didn’t say no to the NBA. 
 

I guess the question is, does Max believe playing less minutes than he did the previous two seasons (in which he put up GREAT numbers and earned back-to-back All American selections) will improve his stock or cause there to be more questions from the front offices. 
 

I agree with everything that has been said. I think ORU as a team benefits from Max playing ~32 mins per game. I just don’t know what kind of sell that will be to Max and his agents/inner circle. 

[Dr. Cornelius]

17 minutes ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

agree with everything that has been said. I think ORU as a team benefits from Max playing ~32 mins per game. I just don’t know what kind of sell that will be to Max and his agents/inner circle.

I don’t think it’s a huge sell. Crunch time minutes are the most important and Max will definitely make his imprint there.

A 100% Max for 35 minutes per game is better than a 75% Max for 40.

[Old Titan]

1 hour ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

I just don’t know what kind of sell that will be to Max and his agents/inner circle. 

I'm sorry, but that really shouldn't matter one bit to coaches at a low-to-mid-major program.

This isn't Kentucky or (currently) Memphis, where that kind of crap permeates (infests?) their decision-making.

Max could have transfered to that kind of program in a heartbeat if that's what really matters to him, but he didn't.

And he has to know that by staying at ORU, he's also signing on for whatever the coaching staff has in mind for him.

...to a point, of course! 

[GoldenEagleFan]

39 minutes ago, Old Titan said:

Max could have transfered to that kind of program in a heartbeat if that's what really matters to him, but he didn't.

Probably because he knew if he came back he would play all 40 mins like he did the previous two years and not risk playing less!

Ok ok I concede, I think we all agree I just sometimes play devils advocate. 

[TrueBlue82]

Max is a smart guy, and if he can be convinced that the team's success and his own production will be equal to or greater than in past seasons by playing only 33-36 minutes, then I think he will be ALL over it.  And, with what appears (on paper, at least) to be a deeper bench, I believe he will have opportunity to take a breather while being confident that the guys on the floor will hold their own until his return.  

[Keenan Henderson]

One piece of the starting lineup we have not discussed much is Big Maple (Lufile).  He was up and down last year, after battling back from an injury and his mother's unfortunate passing.  There are not many guys in college basketball with his strength and leaping ability around the basket.  At the end of the day, Big Maple is about the only beast inside that ORU has (Connor and DJ are basically stretch fours). 

Lufile is the leading returning rebounder in the Summit League, having averaged 7 a game (fourth best in the league for 21-22).  Not to mention being one of the best offensive rebounders in the college game.

When ORU has been at its best then the Eagles had a nice 1-2 scoring punch: Green and Tutt and Max and K.O.  We saw flashes of it last year when Max and Lufile made a nice inside/outside combination.  Is Lufile ready to step into that role on a more consistent basis?

[dave]

I don't think Lufile is ready to be the second part of a 1-2 punch as Keenan referenced. I think that second element will need to be someone else. BUUUT, Lufile is definitely the guy that no one can forget about under and around the rim. That should make it easier for one of the forwards to get great looks because opponents' defense will always need to have a body (or two) around Lufile. The options for scoring should be many this year.

[Keenan Henderson]

I think Lufile is a big X factor this upcoming year.  OT talked about this a lot last season and we saw some glimpses of his potential.  Need his strength and toughness and ability to rebound the missed threes for slams and layups.  He only averaged about 15 minutes his first two seasons.  That should go up to about 25 this year and would not be surprised if he averaged close to a double double (say 11 points and 9 rebounds would be sufficient).  

ORU has to have some kind of inside presence, or they are just back to living and dying by the outside jump shot again.  A good team usually needs some balance.

[ORU40]

32 minutes ago, Keenan Henderson said:

He only averaged about 15 minutes his first two seasons.  That should go up to about 25 this year

I definitely think Lufile  should have played more than 15 minutes per game last year, but minutes are going to be at a premium this year and it looks to me like it going to be difficult to play some of last year's guys the same amount of time. Just for discussion's sake, based on last year here are a guess at this year's minutes:

Max: 35 mpg- can't see Max many less mpg's than this if not slightly more. 

Isaac: 25 mpg- 2nd leading scorer last year and ended up in the starting line up, I'm sure he see's himself playing closer to 30-32 mpg.

Trey: 25 mpg- played over 20 mpg's last year, he's a coach's fav in a guard dominate offense so I would think his minutes will increase.   

Kareem: 23 mpg- Sweet 16 starter, tough defender who started every game last year.

Carlos: 23 mpg- Sweet 16 starter, tough defender and solid veteran who started most of last season.

DJ: 22 mpg- Stretch 4 shooter, started most of last year was up and down at times, lead the conference in blocked shots. 

Lufile: 22 mpg- Showed flashes of brilliance last year, came back from injury to be a dominate offensive rebounder, very effective in pick and dive with Max. Post D and free throw shooting need to improve and can't get into foul trouble as quickly as he did at times. Tremendous upside potential, our most physical player.

Conner: 20 mpg- 7'3" transfer that's played in the Pac 12 and SEC, career 6 point 3 rebound guy, but you cant teach that length.

Williams: 18 mpg- 6'6" transfer from Arizona St. looks to be a very athletic wing that has a reputation as an excellent defender- can never have too many of those! 

Herron: 18 mpg- Off the chart's athlete, 6'9" second year player that has a decent 3 point shot, hard worker that should have played more last year and is my pick for breakout star this upcoming season. 

Patrick: 18 mpg- Starter at UT-Arlington, good defender that averaged 10 pts a game, so good experience and production. Probably the most known entity of the transfer class.

Cameron:  8 mpg- Highly regarded freshman taht looks to be an excellent player down the road, probably wont play much this year, but who knows- coach loves playing his guards! 

Total: 257 

The problem is there are only 200 minutes available per game, (I know where I would trim some minutes!) so who plays less? 

 

 

[jmg1984]

9 minutes ago, ORU40 said:

I definitely think Lufile  should have played more than 15 minutes per game last year, but minutes are going to be at a premium this year and it looks to me like it going to be difficult to play some of last year's guys the same amount of time. Just for discussion's sake, based on last year here are a guess at this year's minutes:

Max: 35 mpg- can't see Max many less mpg's than this if not slightly more. 

Isaac: 25 mpg- 2nd leading scorer last year and ended up in the starting line up, I'm sure he see's himself playing closer to 30-32 mpg.

Trey: 25 mpg- played over 20 mpg's last year, he's a coach's fav in a guard dominate offense so I would think his minutes will increase.   

Kareem: 23 mpg- Sweet 16 starter, tough defender who started every game last year.

Carlos: 23 mpg- Sweet 16 starter, tough defender and solid veteran who started most of last season.

DJ: 22 mpg- Stretch 4 shooter, started most of last year was up and down at times, lead the conference in blocked shots. 

Lufile: 22 mpg- Showed flashes of brilliance last year, came back from injury to be a dominate offensive rebounder, very effective in pick and dive with Max. Post D and free throw shooting need to improve and can't get into foul trouble as quickly as he did at times. Tremendous upside potential, our most physical player.

Conner: 20 mpg- 7'3" transfer that's played in the Pac 12 and SEC, career 6 point 3 rebound guy, but you cant teach that length.

Williams: 18 mpg- 6'6" transfer from Arizona St. looks to be a very athletic wing that has a reputation as an excellent defender- can never have too many of those! 

Herron: 18 mpg- Off the chart's athlete, 6'9" second year player that has a decent 3 point shot, hard worker that should have played more last year and is my pick for breakout star this upcoming season. 

Patrick: 18 mpg- Starter at UT-Arlington, good defender that averaged 10 pts a game, so good experience and production. Probably the most known entity of the transfer class.

Cameron:  8 mpg- Highly regarded freshman taht looks to be an excellent player down the road, probably wont play much this year, but who knows- coach loves playing his guards! 

Total: 257 

The problem is there are only 200 minutes available per game, (I know where I would trim some minutes!) so who plays less? 

 

 

Trey

[ORob1]

Great post, ORU40. Assuming everyone stays healthy, I just can't see how Trey can play nearly as much as he did last year.  Considering the new guys, I think Weaver is also in danger of losing the most minutes. I certainly don't expect him to win back the starting role he had most of last year (before Lufile came on so strong). Now he's also competing with Vanover, Williams and Mwamba.  Not to mention Lufile and Herron...

As the point/small guards go, If I'm in charge, I'm playing Max and McBride and putting Cam's development and game time experience ahead of Phipps getting minutes.  

And assuming our Swiss Army knives (Kareem and Carlos) are going to be scrappy and play good defense they're going to get plenty of PT as well.  Barring injuries to other ball handlers, I just don't see much for Trey this season. 

I hope you all have a great Fourth of July!

Rob

[ORUJason]

DJ, Carlos, and Trey play less.

[Keenan Henderson]

Some guys like Herron, Patrick and Williams need to use their length, size, and athleticism to play tough defense, rebound, and deflect passes.  They may not score a ton or have offensive plays called for them, but they can help in other ways.  For ORU to be successful next year, each player will need to fill a role.  Not everyone can score double figures each night.

[jmg1984]

2 hours ago, Keenan Henderson said:

Some guys like Herron, Patrick and Williams need to use their length, size, and athleticism to play tough defense, rebound, and deflect passes.  They may not score a ton or have offensive plays called for them, but they can help in other ways.  For ORU to be successful next year, each player will need to fill a role.  Not everyone can score double figures each night.

I'll bet herron can score!

[ORUJason]

I could see Vanover subbing in when Lufile subs out and as a result we could have a strong post defensive presence for 40 minutes.  That could cut down on the easy drives to the basket we gave up so frequently last year.