TU game tickets

[Gold*]

I'm not discrediting any of your recruits.  Some of them are better than guys we have signed.  I really wish recruiting services would rerank recruiting classes five years later.  Coach Sutton, Hankins and Williams have got it done on the recruiting trail.  I honestly think that you put Coach Williams vs. any TU coach in the same living room, that ORU will walk away better off with the recruit 9 times out of 10 now.  That's not a slam toward the TU coaching staff.  ORU has been winning a ton, playing a tough schedule, playing in the postseason, and has a history now of signing quality recruits. 

Plus, almost every guy we've signed the last few years has signed because he felt like he fit in with the current players.  It goes along with the theory of hot girls hanging out with hot girls.  Good basketball players like to hang out with good basketball players (and hot girls, which ORU has a lot of those).  Your current players are your best recruiting tool.

Tutt and Green have been huge for ORU, but the winning won't end when they leave.  Are we just suppose to pack it in, and say it's all over once they graduate?  Someone will step up and try to replace them.  Why didn't you guys just close down the program once Shea graduated?  Our coaching staff has been aware for four years that these guys would someday move on.  Sure, we'll have question marks next year (just like 300+ D1 schools across the country).  I'd much rather be in ORU's position than TU's any day.

I don't think you guys will fall off the map, but TU even went through a rough year after Shea left (of course, we had a lot of freak injuries as well).  To say that you think you're in a better position for next season just ignores the record and discredits how good Tutt and Green are.  The Voice made similar points when we predicted we'd be good after KJ and Swanson left and I'll make the same point here.

TU went head to head on Mitchell and perhaps Justin Butler (a freshman for next year) and signed both.  I don't know if Cason or one of the Wojciks was in the same room as Williams, but we got both players.  I'm no math major, but it seems like TU is two for two, which hurts your "nine out of ten" theory.  TU has a lot more to sell a player.  Wojcik is savvy recruiter and great at evaluating talent -- he helped bring in May, McCants, and Felton at UNC.

Truth be told, a lot of the local players that some have faulted us for not recruiting (Justin Robinson) would not have cut it at TU academically.  Of course, Robinson didn't qualify at ORU, either.

ORU has signed some good players over the last few years, but many/most weren't exactly splashes in the recruiting world.  You have a good record this year and an NCAA tournament appearance last year to sell.  (I don't think either school is going to sign a McDonald's All-American anytime soon.)  But, TU certainly has enough going for it that I wouldn't make a statement that ORU is clearly better off, like you just made.  I hope your staff believes your statement, but I also think it would stink if it went back to the old days where TU was clearly better, from the standpoint of the rivalry.

[Gold*]

I think high school coaches are sold on ORU and the Sutton staff, and still trying to get an idea what Coach W is doing.  TU is dead last when it comes to recruiting in Oklahoma.  ORU and TU are almost always going to battle for that third spot in recruiting.  Seriously we should both be battling for the second spot, because OU doesn't really count.  They have almost no support.  OSU is the basketball program in Oklahoma.  Right now you could argue who is the best in state... OSU or ORU?  OSU has actually surprised me early on this year.  Sean Sutton is a great coach and really knows his stuff. 

Dead last?  TU has signed two in-state high school players over the last three recruiting classes, Justin Butler and Sam Mitchell.  ORU probably offered both.  How are we dead last at that point?

Wojcik has a more national pool of players to recruit.  He was in on some of these guys when he was at Michigan State.  A lot of our players are from out of state.    But, if we put together a winning product like we are about to this year, it's all good.  What Oklahoma players has ORU signed and enrolled the last two years?  King and Sango?  Good recruits, but we offered neither.  At some point, the "in state" issue becomes meaningless -- do you think UCONN freaks out when they don't sign the top player in CT?  There are other places to get players.

OU has more fan support than you think.  I can't stand their program for a variety of reasons, but they have an inroads in western Oklahoma/OKC that OSU, TU, and ORU will likely never have.

[Mike Minyard]

Well name me a local player out of CT?  I don't know any, but I've never tried to know either.  I don't know much about Justin Butler, but I know Sam Mitchell did visit ORU.  I don't know how hard we tried to go after him though.  I'm pretty sure we ended up getting Adam Liberty in his place.  So just call it a blessing in disguise.

Do you honestly think that TU has signed the best talent in Oklahoma over the past four years?  The past two?  I wouldn't trade Butler and Mitchell for Vealy.  Nothing against those two guys, but Vealy is just that good.  So I think ORU won the battle it needed to win.  TU didn't want Vealy?  Fine by me.  That's probably a little unfair since Coach W didn't have the time, but the past coaching staff wasn't on it either.

I don't think you'll find too many coaches at Oklahoma high schools and junior colleges that don't like ORU now.  It's not a slam on TU, but that is just how it is now.  People screwed up at Tulsa, and opened up the doors for ORU.  ORU will have to drop the ball somewhere for TU to regain the dominance in-state.

I don't think it's fair to compare in-state talent between OK and CT.  Oklahoma has produced some great athletes in both basketball and football.  Once again, we probably know about the same when it comes to recruiting in CT.  Bottom line, TU and ORU are no UConn.  However, UConn would be stupid to ignore in-state talent if they had any.  Recruiting for dummies page 1... If you have two players with similar talent... one from the same state your school is based in... one from out of state... you better try to get the one in-state just for relationships down the road.

[Gold*]

Well name me a local player out of CT?  I don't know any, but I've never tried to know either.  I don't know much about Justin Butler, but I know Sam Mitchell did visit ORU.  I don't know how hard we tried to go after him though.  I'm pretty sure we ended up getting Adam Liberty in his place.  So just call it a blessing in disguise.

Do you honestly think that TU has signed the best talent in Oklahoma over the past four years?  The past two?  I wouldn't trade Butler and Mitchell for Vealy.  Nothing against those two guys, but Vealy is just that good.  So I think ORU won the battle it needed to win.  TU didn't want Vealy?  Fine by me.  That's probably a little unfair since Coach W didn't have the time, but the past coaching staff wasn't on it either.

I don't think you'll find too many coaches at Oklahoma high schools and junior colleges that don't like ORU now.  It's not a slam on TU, but that is just how it is now.  People screwed up at Tulsa, and opened up the doors for ORU.  ORU will have to drop the ball somewhere for TU to regain the dominance in-state.

I don't think it's fair to compare in-state talent between OK and CT.  Oklahoma has produced some great athletes in both basketball and football.  Once again, we probably know about the same when it comes to recruiting in CT.  Bottom line, TU and ORU are no UConn.  However, UConn would be stupid to ignore in-state talent if they had any.  Recruiting for dummies page 1... If you have two players with similar talent... one from the same state your school is based in... one from out of state... you better try to get the one in-state just for relationships down the road.

I never said that TU had recruited the best talent in OK the last four years.  You're changing the topic again.  What I said was that when TU and ORU both offer the same player, they routinely go to TU; that contradicts your earlier assertion that ORU was somehow ahead of TU in recruiting Oklahoma players.

Vealy was a great recruit, but even your most ardent fan wants to see more consistency out of him.

Other than Green, what players would TU have recruited in state the last few years?  We lost Clent Stewart to K-State.  We didn't want Sango, for whatever reason (I know Sango is good from watching Champions).  We lost out on Hartsock, along with everyone else.

ORU OFFERED Mitchell, which at a minimum indicates that you tried to recruit him pretty hard -- you signed Spicer instead, IIRC.

Have you seen Butler play?

Butler played for Shea at TSST as a senior.  That is at least one coach at an influential school that would send a player to Tulsa.  Mitchell is a similar story -- TU made inroads late to get him.  Wojcik even conveniently let the B-ville coach's name drop as a potential candidate for our third assistant spot (I suspect it was also an attempt to get Hartsock).  You mention inroads with other coaches in-state for ORU, but it sounds like a lot of hyperbole.  When TU goes after a player and offers, it wins 99% of the time (even if we have to literally steal the player out of the ORU dorm, like we did in the 70's).  Tim Gill is the only player I can think of that TU might have offered.

Honestly, for most coaches, they are beyond flattered if ANY D-1 coach is talking to them about a player.  There are so many high schools playing ball compared to the number of D-1 scholarships available.  I don't think TU's staff is somehow deficient.  In fact, Wojcik was calling area high school coaches before he was offered the TU job, just trying to get a leg up.  One of the first things he did was to visit every D-1 recruit for the next couple of years.

My point on CT vs. OK is that you don't have to get great players from your home state to be good.  It sure helps, but TU can fend for itself getting great players in Texas and elsewhere. 

[buildingforthefuTUre]

I think you are really over-stating the disparity between the two school's basketball programs.

I agree with you that TU dropped the ball (Phillip's hire) for ORU to gain some momentum...However, you are acting like ORU has become Kentucky all of a sudden and TU has morphed into Centenary from the Mid Con...!!!

I have stated how bad TU basketball had been over the past three years...WOW!!! REALLY BAD!!!  However, three bad years of performace doesn't translate into a Mid-Con intra-city rival having program dominance for years to come.  The problem was solved, and TU is on the road back.

ORU has a nice program...They do!!!  You say ORU has been "winning a ton, playing a tough schedule", and "playing in the post-season"...Well, the best post-season effort by ORU the past twenty-five years was a #16 seed in the NCAA tourney last year.

To say that ORU will have to "drop the ball" for TU to regain control is far fetched...Come on, Bro!!! TU had 12 NCAA tourney victories and an NIT Championship from 1994-2003 and a top twenty-five program during that same span.

Reality...If TU starts winning again, they have more potential as a program than ORU does.

Is Akron good...!!!  When is that game?  I may go.

[EagleFanatic]

Akron would be a good game to go see. Its one of the better home games we have this year.

[buildingforthefuTUre]

Sounds good, Fanatic...Thanks!

When is the game?

[ORU Eli]

I've been missing the Valpo and TU banter of years past...good to see this thread going.

[orumom]

I don't know if Cason or one of the Wojciks was in the same room as Williams, but we got both players

The question is, how badly did ORU want them, or need them? Obviously neither school offers a scholarship to everyone they visit.

I don't think you have been in a living room with Williams, or you would know how he can work the parents. His Bulls' National Championship ring doesn't hurt his image.(You know that Buz's Michael Jordon stories helped him & Coach Williams played in the NBA with MJ.) Coach Williams was drafted by the Chiefs & the Bulls...usually parents want their sons to be around a coach they would like them to be like. Nothing against Coach W, but I would rather my son had a future in the NBA or NFL and Cory Williams has the track record and contacts to help accomplish those goals. It's more than a theory taught in a classroom, it's someone who has accomplished what you or your son want to accomplish.

Blood line....I've watched recruits at our games watching Eddie Sutton watch Scott coach. You could almost read their minds, if they don't have the opportunity to play for Eddie then they want to play for one of his up and coming sons.

[Gold*]

That would be a WORLD championship ring that Williams got as a reserve, an impressive accomplishment nonetheless...

Name a player that chose ORU over an actual offer from TU. 

*crickets*

An offer from a school would indicate a great deal of interest.  Do you say otherwise?

Wojcik played at Navy with a guy you may have heard of, David Robinson.  He has been around the pinnacle of college basketball as assistant as Michigan State and North Carolina (two teams that have won NATIONAL championships in recent years). 

The truth is that the VAST majority of players have little chance of making the NBA -- most guys who get drafted don't make the cut for more than a couple of years.  Wojcik can sell players on everything else one can get out of playing college basketball, such as a degree from a great university and great life experience playing college basketball.  He seems to be good at it. 

How many NBA prospects do you honestly think ORU has?

[orumom]

He has been around the pinnacle of college basketball as assistant as Michigan State and North Carolina (two teams that have won NATIONAL championships in recent years). 

But unless they won those championships while he was on the staff, as a parent I don't think it matters when it comes to perception.

Williams played collegiately at OSU from 1989-92. He is the 13th all-time leading scorer in school history with 1,320 career points, and helped lead the Cowboys to a pair of Sweet 16 appearances in the NCAA Tournament.

In 1992, Williams was actually drafted by the Kansas City Chiefs in the 12th-round of the NFL draft. Williams was the only OSU athlete taken in the NFL draft that year, despite the fact that he had not played football since junior high.

Instead of sticking with football, however, Williams decided to go to the NBA, where he was drafted in the second round by Chicago. There, he helped the Bulls win their third straight NBA Championship

[Gold*]

That's his biography off the ORU web page -- I didn't say he didn't have a great resume -- now answer my questions.  When has he actually beat TU for a recruit (that TU offered)?  How many players off ORU realistically have a chance of making the NBA?

[ManiacAlum]

Enough arguing over Williams' resume. I don't care. Just more TU disrespect. ORU will dominate the Golden Hurricane in their house while the student section points back to their banners, again. Green and Tutt will once again have big games and TU fans will continue to discredit the rivalry, opting instead to suggest that their program is in the can. And they will be right. It is in the can. I expect to see an ORU Mayor's Cup 4-peat. In fact, don't even bother bringing the trophy to the game.

[Gold*]

Hey Alum,

There was actually no argument over Williams' resume.  I believe I said it was impressive.

Want to talk trash?  Head to this link.  Thank you.

http://mb3.scout.com/ftulsafrm1.showMes ... =139.topic

[Mike Minyard]

Hey I haven't said one negative thing about Coach W.  I think he's doing a great job at Tulsa.  I'm not even saying it's his fault that ORU can out recruit TU now.  Tulsa slipped up with Green, and it really opened up the door for ORU.  You can get the same amount of attention and play in the NCAA Tournament by going to ORU over TU.  You also can say that ORU's coaching staff is accomplished while the TU staff still has something to prove.  If I was a kid from OKC, I'd have to choose ORU over TU at this point.  Why wouldn't you?

I think the ORU coaching staff has done a great job recruiting in-state and in Texas.  I'm not saying that the current TU staff can't recruit.  What I am saying is that ORU definitely has an advantage in-state, and the root of it was Jonathan Bluitt.  Caleb Green was definitely the biggest recruit involved though.

Just my opinion, I think ORU and TU will only be as good as the in-state talent on their rosters.  That's why I say ORU has whipped TU for five years.  ORU has had the best in-state talent for the past five years, and ORU is in a better position to get in-state recruits down the road.

As far as the NBA, ORU's Larry Owens is probably the best recent prospect.  He'll get his shot soon enough.  Kids believe they can make it though, and Coach Williams knows what it takes to get there.  Doesn't mean the kids will make it, but he can sure use that angle.  The truth is... he walks in a room with that ring, his stories, his personality, and ORU's recent success... people fall in love with him.  Try to find a solid recruit that doesn't think he can make it to the league.

Can you really choose a school based on academics?  Every alum is going to think highly of his school's academic programs.  Every school within a university is different too.  I'm a business grad, and I know I received a quality education.  I have friends that have great jobs that were business majors.  I'm not going to be concerned what anyone says about my degree because I know that I can get a good job with an ORU degree.  The quality of your degree has a lot more to do with past graduates than what goes on in a classroom.

I'm done with comparing ORU/TU.  Let's just talk about how many points ORU will win by on Tuesday.  I expect a close game, but I hope I'm wrong.

[Gold*]

Hey I haven't said one negative thing about Coach W.  I think he's doing a great job at Tulsa.  I'm not even saying it's his fault that ORU can out recruit TU now.  Tulsa slipped up with Green, and it really opened up the door for ORU.  You can get the same amount of attention and play in the NCAA Tournament by going to ORU over TU.  You also can say that ORU's coaching staff is accomplished while the TU staff still has something to prove.  If I was a kid from OKC, I'd have to choose ORU over TU at this point.  Why wouldn't you?

I think the ORU coaching staff has done a great job recruiting in-state and in Texas.  I'm not saying that the current TU staff can't recruit.  What I am saying is that ORU definitely has an advantage in-state, and the root of it was Jonathan Bluitt.  Caleb Green was definitely the biggest recruit involved though.

Just my opinion, I think ORU and TU will only be as good as the in-state talent on their rosters.  That's why I say ORU has whipped TU for five years.  ORU has had the best in-state talent for the past five years, and ORU is in a better position to get in-state recruits down the road.

As far as the NBA, ORU's Larry Owens is probably the best recent prospect.  He'll get his shot soon enough.  Kids believe they can make it though, and Coach Williams knows what it takes to get there.  Doesn't mean the kids will make it, but he can sure use that angle.  The truth is... he walks in a room with that ring, his stories, his personality, and ORU's recent success... people fall in love with him.  Try to find a solid recruit that doesn't think he can make it to the league.

Can you really choose a school based on academics?  Every alum is going to think highly of his school's academic programs.  Every school within a university is different too.  I'm a business grad, and I know I received a quality education.  I have friends that have great jobs that were business majors.  I'm not going to be concerned what anyone says about my degree because I know that I can get a good job with an ORU degree.  The quality of your degree has a lot more to do with past graduates than what goes on in a classroom.

I'm done with comparing ORU/TU.  Let's just talk about how many points ORU will win by on Tuesday.  I expect a close game, but I hope I'm wrong.

I didn't attribute any negative comments regarding Wojcik to you, MM.

Name an in-state prospect that chose ORU over TU.  You have said elsewhere that the proof is in the pudding (i.e. the product on the floor).  If that's your logic, you'd look to recent recruiting to determine if your premise that ORU now has a recruiting advantage over TU holds water.  That isn't the case if you look at the last several recruiting classes.  The players you cite to were not offered by TU.

As I said elsewhere, Bluitt didn't qualify for TU out of high school and was passed on for other reasons.  He was a good player.  Green was NOTORIOUSLY not offered a scholarship by TU.  It was stupid by TU, as I've said elsewhere.

I don't think TU has to get the best in-state players to win.  A lot of our famous players were from out of state -- Harrington (TX), KJ (TX), Ruffin (CO), Kurtz (CA).  Most of the famous Nolan team with Paul Pressy was from Texas.  We usually didn't get the most recruited in-state players during our 25 year run and we were just fine.

If it's a push on a recruit between TU and RU, TU is going to win.  It's a top 100 national university according to US News, outranking any other school in Oklahoma.  It has a proven record of graduating players.  You're right that a lot of recruits think they can make the league, but a lot of parents in this day and age know how tough it is to make it.  From the looks of things, when it comes to recruiting between the two schools, TU is winning.  You have absolutely no response to my argument that Mitchell and Butler were recruited by ORU, but chose TU -- the proof is in the pudding. 

I can cite a number of articles where players say they chose TU over another school because of academics -- for example, Ben Uzoh said that.  You say a player from OKC would choose ORU over TU, but you have no evidence to substantiate that conclusion.

As far as the tournament, most years ORU will have to win the MidCon Tournament.  You did it last year, but that doesn't mean it will happen every year.  Most of Tulsa's NCAA bids during the run, on the other hand, were at large.  Based on conference affiliation, TU naturally has a better chance at qualifying for the tournament.

[Mike Minyard]

I can't say much about Butler and Mitchell because I don't know enough.  I was around when Mitchell made his visit though.  I won't say anything about either recruit because I'm not going to speak for the ORU coaching staff.  I don't know enough to be 100% accurate, but I know enough to tell part of the story.  I just don't want to do that to anyone.

Does ORU get every player they want?  No.  Who does?  Just because Oklahoma State football gets a couple of in-state recruits doesn't mean they have the upper hand on Oklahoma.  Oklahoma gets the best in the state, but OSU does sometimes get a good one.  That's what I'm saying is going on between ORU and TU.  Yes, TU got some in-state recruits, but ORU has been getting the best.  You don't have to win every recruit.  It might explain why ORU and TU are in their current positions if Mitchell and Butler are the only in-state recruits that TU has liked.  In the past five years... TU may have won some battles, but ORU is winning the war.

[Gold*]

You have conceeded every argument in this thread and keep asserting the same faulty premises.

TU has done better in recruiting the last two years, therefore you can't say ORU has been better for the last five.  At the very least, ORU didn't do a better job in recruiting last season -- you lost at least three recruits who had signed and filled up your class with last second transfers.  You have no true freshmen.  That's not good.

In the last two years, your best recruits were Vealy and Sango.  No one in D1 but you offered Sango.  Vealy wasn't exactly highly recruited either.  I think Sango and Vealy will be good players for you, but c'mon -- they weren't exactly the fruits of recruiting battles.

Believe what you want, but ORU isn't building for the long term, as evidenced by the lack of true freshmen.  That's no way to win a war.