TU game tickets

[ORUTerry]

This is an important game to both schools. It means bragging rights for the best program in the city and has an impact on the public's perception. The atmosphere and intensity also provide the teams with a nice test of their toughness and ability. Thanks for promoting tickets sales to ORU fans last night.... I have six and may have my hands on five more. Hope the Maniacs can buy a block of seats.

[Old Titan]

After being a part of this rivalry for more than 30 years, I always get a chuckle over TU fans claiming so vehemently year after year how little this game means to them.  Let me tell you in one sentence how much this game means to them:  they hate losing to ORU more than any other team in America.  They could handle losing every now and then to Wichita State and Creighton when they were in The Valley, or Utah and Fresno State in the WAC, or Memphis and UTEP in Conference USA, but losing to ORU has always been their ultimate humiliation.  And it doesn't matter whether TU was considered the better team that year or not - playing ORU in basketball is annually used by TU fans as a barometer, just as playing OSU in football is the same for them.  And a loss to ORU has traditionally been met with widespread panic among their ranks:  "What's wrong with us - we lost to ORU!!"  Nolan Richardson has gone on record several times that he was given only one specific edict when he was brought in to replace Jim King:  "Beat ORU".  So let TU fans continue to cry from the mountain top how this game means nothing to them.  We all know different. 

[buildingforthefuTUre]

ORU Fans,

I didn't say the game wasn't an important game...It definitely is.

Is it our SUPERBOWL...?  NO!  It hasn't been in 25 years.

If this game was considered a huge game year in and year out for the TU program, we wouldn't have lost to a poor ORU team in '99-00 with one of TU's best teams ever.

This game is important because we are playing a team that has beat us soundly over the last three years.  However, I don't have enough room on this thread to list other mediocre teams that have performed the same feat at least once to TU during the same time span.

Old Titan - In the past, the only situation where ORU is a barometer for TU is when they lose.  You're right.  Typically, if TU loses to ORU, something is VERY wrong.  Great point.  Also, comparing TU/ORU to TU/OSU football is a bit nuts.  OSU is in a BCS conference with better talent and resources than TU.  If TU can compete with OSU on the football field, it's a good thing.

ORUMom - I'm sorry, ORU has a nice program...Not a great program.  The win at Kansas was phenomenal...A guy who only had one three all last year hit seven in 20+ minutes.

Other than the KU win, I don't recall many ORU wins over the last three years against a team with an RPI under 100, let alone top 50.

As I said in my initial post, I expect ORU to win on Tuesday.  That doesn't mean ORU has a FANTASTIC program.  It means TU had fallen to the depths of horrible college basketball.  The good news?  They are climbing out FAST.

[Gold*]

I'm not saying that the game doesn't mean anything, but in years where TU has been really good, it might mean less, in the sense that we have nothing to gain and everything to lose.  Obviously, it is important to both teams this year

[tmh8286]

This is a big game for TU due to the fact that it's a chance for TU to beat a quality opponent, which is exactly what ORU is.

Good luck Tuesday!

That may be the nicest thing a TU fan has ever said to us!  Thanks!

[Old Titan]

As I said in my initial post, I expect ORU to win on Tuesday.  That doesn't mean ORU has a FANTASTIC program.  It means TU had fallen to the depths of horrible college basketball.

I think that comment pretty much sums up what I was trying to say about what kind of regard TU fans hold ORU basketball in!

[Mike Minyard]

I'm not looking forward to the game on Tuesday at all.  It's really a waste of time for our great team at ORU.  Why in the world would we ever go play this game at their place?  We have so much lose, and nothing to gain out of it.  TU is at the lowest of lows in college basketball, and trying to figure out how to get back to a level of respectability.  ORU has gone to a whole new level, and gets the recruits that TU can't get.  Caleb Green and Marchello Vealy are past Oklahoma players of the year, and ORU almost had David Goldbold (lost out to Oklahoma).  We lose out on recruits to the top programs, not programs like Tulsa.  Anyone Tulsa recruits must really suck, so that's why you don't see us trying to sign those type of guys any more.  The guys we didn't get just weren't good enough for ORU so that's why we let them sign with San Diego.  Nobody would ever turn down a scholarship offer from ORU, so those guys probably didn't get an offer.  I really hope that we don't see Tulsa on the schedule ever again unless it's at the Mabee Center.  Those guys kill our RPI.  Plus that game means so much more to those guys.  This is their game of the year.  They'll treat this game like it's their NIT game.

This post was a total joke... But that is about how crazy the talk is from TU fans (not all) prior to the Mayor's Cup game.  I hope that ORU blasts TU, and that Coach Sutton never calls the dogs off.  That's the ORU grad in me.  The poster's that don't think this is a big game just don't understand the history of the rivalry.  You have to look past the last 10 years to get it.  You have to understand the whole story.

[buildingforthefuTUre]

Mike M,

Keep in mind, I never said it wasn't a "Big game"...

My response to this thread was due to an ORU fan stating that "this is their SuperBowl... this is the one game they circle all year"...

Whether it's right or wrong, TU just doesn't see this game as our "Superbowl".  Sorry, but that statement is absolutely ridiculous.  We are in different conferences, seldom recruit the same players, and have seen different levels of success over the past several years.

In my posts, I have said nothing negative about ORU's program.  I have great friends that are ORU grads.  To be honest, I try to follow ORU's team when TU is off.  (I watched the entire LMU game on the internet.)

This year, the ORU game is a big game for TU.  TU's record the last three years was 29-57.  That's pathetic.  A win over a crosstown rival that has beaten us three straight years would be big.

[Mike Minyard]

building,

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically.  Nobody has a game on their schedule that is "Superbowl" level unless it's Oklahoma-Texas, Ohio State-Michigan, UNC-Duke, etc.  I sure wish that the ORU-TU game would rise to that level between the fans.

There are few things that put a smile on my face like the one I get after ORU beats Tulsa. 

But I'm going to take a page out of TU nations book.  Tulsa is a bad basketball program right now, and that game doesn't do much for us.  It's not that big of a game.  The big game for us is actually when Akron comes to town on Saturday.  That's a bigger showdown between solid teams.  ORU just needs to go across town and take care of business.  I'm really excited about the game against the MAC preseason favorite on Saturday. 

TU fans think records matter in these games.  They don't!  It doesn't matter who beat who earlier, or who even has the most talent.  The players have to read the same paper.  They see these guys in the same town getting more love.  The team that plays harder usually wins this game.  Players are going to step up and hit big shots in these games.  I don't understand why more people don't just appreciate the games between ORU and TU.  There is no doubt that ORU is going to do much more than Tulsa this season, but it should still be considered a big game on Tuesday.

TU and ORU don't recruit the same players?  I guess they never wanted Caleb Green, Jonathan Bluitt, Marchello Vealy, Adam Liberty, Shawn King, Mickey Michalec, Kelvin Sango or Chris Rouise.  I'll be happy if ORU keeps taking the in-state talent that TU overlooks.  That's not the case buddy.  ORU has been whipping TU in recruiting for about five years.

[Gold*]

building,

I wasn't talking to anyone specifically.  Nobody has a game on their schedule that is "Superbowl" level unless it's Oklahoma-Texas, Ohio State-Michigan, UNC-Duke, etc.  I sure wish that the ORU-TU game would rise to that level between the fans.

There are few things that put a smile on my face like the one I get after ORU beats Tulsa. 

But I'm going to take a page out of TU nations book.  Tulsa is a bad basketball program right now, and that game doesn't do much for us.  It's not that big of a game.  The big game for us is actually when Akron comes to town on Saturday.  That's a bigger showdown between solid teams.  ORU just needs to go across town and take care of business.  I'm really excited about the game against the MAC preseason favorite on Saturday. 

TU fans think records matter in these games.  They don't!  It doesn't matter who beat who earlier, or who even has the most talent.  The players have to read the same paper.  They see these guys in the same town getting more love.  The team that plays harder usually wins this game.  Players are going to step up and hit big shots in these games.  I don't understand why more people don't just appreciate the games between ORU and TU.  There is no doubt that ORU is going to do much more than Tulsa this season, but it should still be considered a big game on Tuesday.

TU and ORU don't recruit the same players?  I guess they never wanted Caleb Green, Jonathan Bluitt, Marchello Vealy, Adam Liberty, Shawn King, Mickey Michalec, Kelvin Sango or Chris Rouise.  I'll be happy if ORU keeps taking the in-state talent that TU overlooks.  That's not the case buddy.  ORU has been whipping TU in recruiting for about five years.

I guess you're trying to be funny.  TU didn't offer any of the players you mentioned, choosing players who were often rated higher.  You guys did a great job on some evaluations, but to say you've been kicking our butts in recruiting for FIVE years in plainly wrong.  You don't have much of recruiting class for the current group of freshmen -- you lost Hazell and the others didn't qualify.  Sango and King are nice players, but I'd rather have TU's group for this year if that's what we're comparing.  Anyone who follows basketball in the area knows we recruited better this year.

I'd rather have TU's class from last year, to be honest.  Vealy had a huge game against KU, but what else have your new players done?  You got a transfer in Liberty who is a good starter.  I'd rather have the comination of Earls, Reese, Coleman, Wheatly, Crow, and Mitchell (a player we beat you for).

That's two years in a row in my book.

Not sure we're a bad a basketball program right now -- I think we're somewhere in the middle, to be honest.

[Mike Minyard]

You're absolutely right Gold...

Adam Liberty, Marchello Vealy, Sylvester Spicer and Darren Jordan were part of the same recruiting class.  I'll take Vealy knocking down seven treys at Kansas as him showing his potential.  The kid can definately score some points.  Adam Liberty was good enough to start at Wichita State for two years and earn Missouri Valley all-defensive team accolades.  Spicer and Jordan might blossom into something eventually.  I really like the potential of Spicer, and I still believe that he'll develop into something nice.  I'm unsure of Jordan, but you never know.

This past recruiting class included Shawn King, Kelvin Sango, Curtis Allen, Marcus Lewis and Egidijus Budrikis.  King and Sango have stepped in and posted solid numbers early.  Junior college transfers usually take about two months to adjust to the speed.  I can only imagine what these guys will do once they adjust.  Sango also has three years of eligibility.  Curtis Allen (top 100 recruit out of high school) transferred from Kansas State, and should be a solid player for us.  He'll probably step in and start in Ken Tutt's spot next year.  I wasn't overly impressed by Marcus Lewis when I went to practice, but someone told me that he could replace (well by position only) Caleb Green next year.  Budrikis is a junior college sharp shooter, that should provide a solid shooter off the bench for the next three years.  We should have had a couple more Oklahoma high school kids, but things just didn't work out.

ORU has done a solid job of taking care of recruiting classes in the fall.  A lot like TU did in the late 90's.

Tell me one reason why TU wouldn't be interested in Green, Bluitt, Vealy, Liberty, King, Michalec, Sango or Rouise out of high school/junior college?  Bluitt won four state championships, Liberty signed with Wichita State, King was recruited by Utah State and a couple other solid programs, Michalec went to Texas Tech originally, Green and Vealy were Oklahoma Players of the Year, Sango and Rouise had solid high school careers and both played well at NEO.  TU just didn't think those guys were good enough or is it possible that ORU just built better relationships with them earlier?  Do you ever think that ORU beat the TU coaches to the punch?

[Gold*]

You're absolutely right Gold...

Adam Liberty, Marchello Vealy, Sylvester Spicer and Darren Jordan were part of the same recruiting class.  I'll take Vealy knocking down seven treys at Kansas as him showing his potential.  The kid can definately score some points.  Adam Liberty was good enough to start at Wichita State for two years and earn Missouri Valley all-defensive team accolades.  Spicer and Jordan might blossom into something eventually.  I really like the potential of Spicer, and I still believe that he'll develop into something nice.  I'm unsure of Jordan, but you never know.

This past recruiting class included Shawn King, Kelvin Sango, Curtis Allen, Marcus Lewis and Egidijus Budrikis.  King and Sango have stepped in and posted solid numbers early.  Junior college transfers usually take about two months to adjust to the speed.  I can only imagine what these guys will do once they adjust.  Sango also has three years of eligibility.  Curtis Allen (top 100 recruit out of high school) transferred from Kansas State, and should be a solid player for us.  He'll probably step in and start in Ken Tutt's spot next year.  I wasn't overly impressed by Marcus Lewis when I went to practice, but someone told me that he could replace (well by position only) Caleb Green next year.  Budrikis is a junior college sharp shooter, that should provide a solid shooter off the bench for the next three years.  We should have had a couple more Oklahoma high school kids, but things just didn't work out.

ORU has done a solid job of taking care of recruiting classes in the fall.  A lot like TU did in the late 90's.

Tell me one reason why TU wouldn't be interested in Green, Bluitt, Vealy, Liberty, King, Michalec, Sango or Rouise out of high school/junior college?  Bluitt won four state championships, Liberty signed with Wichita State, King was recruited by Utah State and a couple other solid programs, Michalec went to Texas Tech originally, Sango and Rouise had solid high school careers and both played well at NEO.  TU just didn't think those guys were good enough or is it possible that ORU just built better relationships with them earlier.  Do you ever think that ORU beat the TU coaches to the punch?

TU was interested in a couple of those players.  That's not my argument.  My point is that I don't think you kicked our butt in recruiting as you stated you did for the last FIVE seasons as that wasn't the case over the last two years.

I'll concede that your staff did a GREAT job on Green and Tutt.  We'd take them any day.  McDade, Kenneth Kelly, Ramsdell, and Price (who was the year before) were more highly thought of coming out of high school -- clearly the critics were wrong.  OSU wanted Ramsdell -- that says something.

Michalec WANTED to come to TU, but we turned him down -- that was about the time that Buzz was the coach, IIRC.  Bluitt was the same story -- we recruited him in high school, but didn't take because of academics and because the biggest criticism of our team at the time was that we had too many short guards (Reed, Swanson, Harrington, and Parker).  Of course, the Voice doesn't think Bluitt was all that great...

We recruited Liberty, but offered Kelly and McDade over him.  Both were Top 10 players in Texas and considered huge steals for TU.  McDade was probably our best player last year, so it worked out well for us.  Kelly had all-world talent, but no desire to go to class.  I'm not trying to knock Tutt, as he was clearly a diamond in the rough and beat our butts the last two years.  I think Liberty will be just as good for you guys.  My point is that our staff built good relationships with players they DID NOT offer, refuting your argument that they did not do that.  You didn't beat us for anyone that both schools offered, although some claim Wojcik tried to recruit Vealy at the last second.  TU didn't recruit Sango, King, or Riouse (in the case of Riouse, we had everyone else off that BA team... but that's another story for another day).

As for this year, we blew you guys out of the water in recruiting.  Eaglebackr has made the fair point that ORU has to recruit more transfers and JUCO players than others do -- I actually think it's also a Sutton thing -- but even he finally gave in that things didn't go according to plan for you guys.  You lost three recruits, including Hazell (a huge steal) and Robinson.  The transfers will help, but there is a reason they left their programs.  If you are happy with that class, more power to you -- it is certainly not what your coaching staff intended to have.  You lost at least three four year players.  That's not good.

For 04-05, Spicer and Jordan are role players.  Liberty is fine, and Vealy, as I said elsewhere, was huge against KU.  But, many ORU fans were critical of him before that game.

Meanwhile, TU got two guys who have already cracked the starting lineup in Walls and Uzoh (who was recruited by Wichita State, OU, Creighton, and Virginia).  Mark Hill may be our best point guard already and Jamel McLean is a name you all will know well in a year or two (he was offered by Pittsburgh and Virginia).  Finally, Jerome Jordan is a bit of project, but many believe he has big time talent (he's the 7 footer you'll see on the bench).  We got one clear Super star in this class in Uzoh, one solid starter in Walls, and two good four year contributers in McLean and Hill.

For 04-05, TU got at least two guys who play major minutes this year in Earls and Mitchell (a player who was actually offered by both schools and chose TU).  Reese was big at times last year and many think he'll get it together.  Coleman redshirted, but he's got a lot of potential and has contributed in his few minutes.  Wheatly is being turned into a wing this year and is redshirting.  Earls is starting, Mitchell starts from time to time, and the others are still young.

In both cases, I'd take our last two classes any day.  You haven't beat us at recruiting over the last five years, which is of the course the point I was taking issue with.

[Mike Minyard]

I'll argue this to my grave.  It doesn't matter what anyone says about your recruits.  All that matters is what they do while wearing your school uniform.  You can't go off what anyone says.  You have to get leads, and go look at kids.  You have to evaluate how he fits into the program, and what your coaching staff can do to make him better.  The best way to see who wins the recruiting battle is to see who continues to win the Mayor's Cup.  I would be SHOCKED if Caleb Green allowed a TU upset.  It's just not going to happen this season.  I'll go ahead and say ORU will win the game at home next year to for a fifth straight win.  We only have to win about 13 more games to even up the series.

I'm a firm believer that Phillips' staff never out recruited ORU.  That's about all we can compare right now.  We won't be able to compare the last couple recruiting classes until they are juniors/senior/graduated.  Being a starter doesn't prove that you're recruiting good players.  It just proves that the older players aren't good enough.  I think Coach W was a good hire.  I was actually pulling for Capel to get the TU job.  He was my pick for the job.

[Gold*]

I'll argue this to my grave.  It doesn't matter what anyone says about your recruits.  All that matters is what they do while wearing your school uniform.  You can't go off what anyone says.  You have to get leads, and go look at kids.  You have to evaluate how he fits into the program, and what your coaching staff can do to make him better.  The best way to see who wins the recruiting battle is to see who continues to win the Mayor's Cup.  I would be SHOCKED if Caleb Green allowed a TU upset.  It's just not going to happen this season.  I'll go ahead and say ORU will win the game at home next year to for a fifth straight win.  We only have to win about 13 more games to even up the series.

I'm a firm believer that Phillips' staff never out recruited ORU.  That's about all we can compare right now.  We won't be able to compare the last couple recruiting classes until they are juniors/senior/graduated.  Being a starter doesn't prove that you're recruiting good players.  It just proves that the older players aren't good enough.  I think Coach W was a good hire.  I was actually pulling for Capel to get the TU job.  He was my pick for the job.

Good luck winning next year after losing perhaps your best tandem in school history.

You're right that the proof is in the pudding and of course our recruits the last two years don't play just your recruits.  But, you made the statement that you did better than TU in recruiting for the last FIVE years, which is patently false at the point you lost three recruits over the summer for this year.  You can wait for four or five years for proof, but I'll be at the Reynolds Center watching Ben Uzoh dunk in traffic and checking Jeremy Hazell's stats for Seton Hall on my Blackberry.   I hope your class last year works out for you, but it's definitely not ideal and it discredits how great your staff was at evaluating Hazell to say otherwise.

Now you're trying to morph into an argument that Phillips never outrecruited ORU -- that wasn't the issue.  For the sake of argument, I'd add that if TU had offered any of those players when Phillips was the coach, they would have come to Tulsa -- we were fresh off a run of NCAA tournament victories.  I'll credit Sutton with shrewd recruiting and evaluation until I die.  One also has to wonder just how poor TU's staff was at developing the players we had.  Price certainly had more potential than he showed and Ramsdell was lost on the bench for two years -- a frequent topic on the TU board is that it is a crime he wasn't redshirted.  Phillips recruited what were supposed to be talented players, but a lot of issues developed in the course of things -- heck, the man claimed that McDade, Kelly, Teichman, Gonzalez, Ramsdell, Cardwell class was the first class in school history where we got every single player we wanted.  In other words, if anyone went to TU under Phillips, they probably would have been wasted. 

I hope your team discredits Earls, Uzoh, and Walls as much as you are.

[Mike Minyard]

I'm not discrediting any of your recruits.  Some of them are better than guys we have signed.  I really wish recruiting services would rerank recruiting classes five years later.  Coach Sutton, Hankins and Williams have got it done on the recruiting trail.  I honestly think that you put Coach Williams vs. any TU coach in the same living room, that ORU will walk away better off with the recruit 9 times out of 10 now.  That's not a slam toward the TU coaching staff.  ORU has been winning a ton, playing a tough schedule, playing in the postseason, and has a history now of signing quality recruits. 

Plus, almost every guy we've signed the last few years has signed because he felt like he fit in with the current players.  It goes along with the theory of hot girls hanging out with hot girls.  Good basketball players like to hang out with good basketball players (and hot girls, which ORU has a lot of those).  Your current players are your best recruiting tool.

Tutt and Green have been huge for ORU, but the winning won't end when they leave.  Are we just suppose to pack it in, and say it's all over once they graduate?  Someone will step up and try to replace them.  Why didn't you guys just close down the program once Shea graduated?  Our coaching staff has been aware for four years that these guys would someday move on.  Sure, we'll have question marks next year (just like 300+ D1 schools across the country).  I'd much rather be in ORU's position than TU's any day.

[buildingforthefuTUre]

Mike,

ORU has definitely recruited some nice players to compliment your program.

My point, however, was that TU doesn't recruit the same players ORU does.

The majority of the players ORU signs are never recruited by TU.  The majority of the players TU signs never consider ORU as a school they would prefer to play for.  You can check any of the major recruiting services to validate my statement.

Have some ORU players (Green and Tutt) out performed TU signees...?  Absolutely.  Does that mean ORU signs better talent more consistently than TU...?  Not at all.

If TU and ORU are after a player (this very seldom happens), the player will more often than not committ to TU.  In similar form, if OSU and TU are after a player, the player will more often than not committ to OSU.

Mike - You are a passionate fan who is typing with his heart over his head...which is fine!!!  ORU should win Tuesday...But next year...?  Doubt it.  Thus far, I don't see the potential to replace Green.

[Dr. Cornelius]

Mike - You are a passionate fan who is typing with his heart over his head...which is fine!!!  ORU should win Tuesday...But next year...?  Doubt it.  Thus far, I don't see the potential to replace Green.

Actually I think Mike knows more than most about the subject.

[Mike Minyard]

You're right... I don't know what ORU has realistically.  Tell me why a player would choose TU over ORU now?  Conference USA vs. Mid-Con is about all you have on that argument.  Guess what, we'll have a better chance of going to the Big Dance again next year.  That's what it comes down to right?  Getting a chance to play in the NCAA Tournament?  I think you're just as guilty with typing with your heart.

And maybe you're right.  I know TU doesn't go after every guy ORU goes after.  I just pointed out the in-state talent that TU has overlooked for years.  Jonathan Bluitt was really the turning point for ORU basketball.  You have to be kidding if you're going to say that only Green and Tutt have outperformed anyone on TU's roster.  Bluitt, Spencer-Gardner, Larry Owens, Mickey Michalec, and several others would have been welcomed with opened arms at TU.  Yes, TU didn't recruit a lot of the guys on ORU's roster.  Doesn't mean they didn't screw up either when they let in-state talent go to ORU.  You don't just get it back either.  ORU basketball is back baby!  Major events have to happen in order for the powers to change hands between ORU and TU. 

1970's

ORU had Trickey, Roberts, Fuqua and the Mabee Center.  ORU basketball took off.

1980's

Nolan was hired to beat ORU (turning point in series).  ORU had some tough times financially later in the decade. 

1990's

ORU came back to D1 with Bill Self.  Self brought ORU back to respectability.  TU hasn't dominated ORU since Self's ORU squad won in 1995(?).

2000's

TU dropped the ball with Caleb Green, and gave ORU the opportunity to dominate TU in recruiting in-state players.  This really was the second turning point.  High school and junior college coaches are sold on ORU and the Sutton staff. 

TU is dead last when it comes to recruiting in Oklahoma.  ORU and TU are almost always going to battle for that third spot in recruiting.  Seriously we should both be battling for the second spot, because OU doesn't really count.  They have almost no support.  OU and OSU are going to be able to recruit on a national level.  ORU and TU need to sign the best in-state talent, and fill holes with players outside the area.  OSU is the basketball program in Oklahoma.  Right now you could argue who has the best team in state... OSU or ORU?  OSU has actually surprised me early on this year.  Sean Sutton is a great coach and really knows his stuff.  OSU is really the program to beat in Oklahoma.

ORU and TU use to do a home-and-home.  The series record is a little inflated because of it.  ORU would have won six straight, going on eight straight if we still scheduled that way.  This has been a great rivalry that is very underappreciated.