Mid-Major Top 25 a Joke on Summit Teams

[Old Titan]

Here is the latest CollegeInsider.com Mid-Major Top 25 poll, dated Dec. 20:

1. Cleveland State (23) 12-1 747 pts.

2. Old Dominion (3) 8-2 727

3. St. Mary's (2) 9-2 681

4. Gonzaga (1) 6-5 656

5. Wichita State (2) 8-2 637

6. Drexel 8-1 579

7. George Mason 8-2 539

8. Missouri State 7-3 523

9. Oakland 6-6 483

10. Butler 6-4 448

11. North Texas 9-2 432

12. VCU 7-2 431

13. Kent State 8-3 419

14. College of Charleston 8-3 338

15. Portland 9-3 324

16. Vermont 7-2 275

17. Northern Iowa 7-3 252

18. Harvard 7-2 219

19. Coastal Carolina 9-2 187

20. Belmont 8-2 162

21. Creighton 6-4 161

22. Montana 7-4 111

23. Murray State 7-4 99

24. Iona 7-4 97

25. Princeton 8-3 62

OTHERS RECEIVING VOTES: James Madison 49, South Dakota State 45, Detroit 41, Illinois State 32, Hampton 31, Loyola (Chicago) 29, Lipscomb 26, Morehead State 22, Stephen F. Austin 22, UC Santa Barbara 22, Fairfield 17, Ohio 16, Columbia 13, North Dakota State 13, Furman 11, Buffalo 10, Jacksonville 10, Delaware 9, Northwestern State 9, Quinnipiac 8, Texas-San Antonio 8, American 7, IPFW 7, UNC Wilmington 7, Florida Atlantic 6, Sam Houston State 5, Wofford 4, Northern Arizona 3, Davidson 2, Akron 1, Cal State Bakersfield 1.

Look, I have no problem with Oakland being ranked #9 - they deserve it. But could someone please tell me how SDSU is still lurking outside the Top 25, with NDSU and I-P-F-freaking-W also receiving votes?

ORU probably doesn't deserve to be in the Top 25 - after all, our best wins are at Utah and at IUPUI, which ain't exactly world-beaters. But IPFW hasn't beaten anyone this season with an RPI better than 250! They lost Saturday night 63-47 to a mediocre Valpo team that isn't getting ANY votes in this poll! In short; IPFW sucks! Proof IPFW Sucks

It's pretty easy to see what's going on here. Take a look at the voting panel for the poll:

Jesse Agel (Brown), Randy Bennett (St. Mary's), Milan Brown (Holy Cross), Will Brown (Albany), Rick Byrd (Belmont), Dave Calloway (Monmouth), Kermit Davis (Middle Tennessee), Billy Donlon (Wright State), James Fox (Davidson), Tyler Geving (Portland State), Mike Gillian (Longwood), Steve Hawkins (Western Michigan), Dick Hunsaker (Utah Valley), Greg Kampe (Oakland), Danny Kaspar (Stephen F. Austin), Kerry Keating (Santa Clara), Billy Kennedy (Murray State), Jim Larranaga (George Mason), Mike Lonergan (Vermont), Gregg Marshall (Wichita State), Greg McDermott (Creighton), Tom Moore (Quinnipiac), Gregg Nibert (Presbyterian), Jimmy Patsos (Loyola MD), Buzz Peterson (UNC Wilmington), Vann Pettaway (Alabama A&M), Clifford Reed, Jr. (Bethune Cookman), John Shulman (Chattanooga), Brad Stevens (Butler), Gary Stewart (UC Davis), Ernie Zeigler (Central Michigan)

I would be willing to bet money that the Mastodons' entire 7-point total comes from one coach voting them #19 on his ballot. Wonder who would have that kind of an agenda?

And frankly, I find it amazing that the sole Summit League representative on the panel would see fit to leave both ORU and IUPUI - teams who actually DO have some Top 150 wins under their belts - completely off his ballot. Wonder why he would do that?

My complaints may seem petty to some, but if that's the case, then doesn't what's being done in this voting process seem even more so?

In the long run, I guess it's not that big a deal - but it is a joke.

[ORUTerry]

This will clear up once conference season starts. The good teams will separate themselves and the pretenders will be exposed.

You have to wonder what Kampe is thinking in giving votes to IPFW. Probably just looking at their record and not their opponents.

[bballmangc]

We should create our own poll that no one reads or really cares about and put us number 1. The voting is probably done by a grad assistant for each coach anyway.

[Hoopsdude18]

You have to wonder what Kampe is thinking in giving votes to IPFW. Probably just looking at their record and not their opponents.

Assuming that it is him, this statement is pretty whack. You think he's not paying attention to who they are beating? That's his job for crying out loud. Kampe has said since the pre-season that he really likes that team, but in my mind too much of that is based on having two "senior guards." Look I wouldn't vote IPFW in the poll as of yet, but to say that he or any other in-league coach is "just looking at their record" is pretty insane. Now I will say that coaches probably don't do as much investigation on teams from other conferences who they'll never play, making this whole poll a bit of a non-factor. As you say, just wait until conference season. If ORU beats the teams getting votes, they'll move into this discussion.

[Old Titan]

I doubt that our #7 ranking in the "Top Mid Major Programs" poll this past summer helped us much in the resentment category among conference foes.

[ManiacAlum]

Yeah I'm going to have to agree- even when ORU was a regular on this poll it seemed pretty worthless. I think there was even one year we finished 5th or 6th. It's kind of a college version of getting your name in the paper.

Right now, they have Butler listed as the #10 mid-major in the nation... what's also funny to me is that they have a "Chairman" for this poll. So is he the coach that calls all the other coaches at the end of the week and bugs them to get their votes in?

I don't know if it's quite as bad as the "power rankings" poll, which of course is necessary if you can't break down the conference standings.

[Old Titan]

Assuming that it is him, this statement is pretty whack. You think he's not paying attention to who they are beating? That's his job for crying out loud. Kampe has said since the pre-season that he really likes that team, but in my mind too much of that is based on having two "senior guards." Look I wouldn't vote IPFW in the poll as of yet, but to say that he or any other in-league coach is "just looking at their record" is pretty insane. Now I will say that coaches probably don't do as much investigation on teams from other conferences who they'll never play, making this whole poll a bit of a non-factor. As you say, just wait until conference season. If ORU beats the teams getting votes, they'll move into this discussion.

Actually, Kampe's "job" is coaching basketball, not voting in polls.

And stating otherwise is "whack" and "pretty insane".

Bottom line: if they are going to go to the trouble of compiling a weekly mid-major poll, it would be nice if it actually had some integrity and legitimacy.

Jus' sayin'...

[Dr. Cornelius]

We should create our own poll that no one reads or really cares about and put us number 1. The voting is probably done by a grad assistant for each coach anyway.

That made me laugh.

[Grizz]

IPFW took X to overtime at X and lost close at undefeated Cincinnati......OT did you watch the inside oakland practice on the Collegeinsider web. Wondered your thoughts

[Hoopsdude18]

Actually, Kampe's "job" is coaching basketball, not voting in polls.

And stating otherwise is "whack" and "pretty insane".

lol I did not state otherwise. Yes, his job is to pay attention to who they are beating because he is the coach of Oakland and will have to play IPFW twice. Not because of the poll. His job as coach is to have a game plan when he has to go on the road to Fort Wayne. A big part of that game plan is breaking down tape from previous IPFW games. He knows who they are playing, and knows the strengths/weaknesses of their schedule.

[Old Titan]

Not this time of year, they don't.

The week they have to play them, sure - but not now.

[ORUTerry]

Kampe giving them votes is 'whacked' and 'insane'.... I was trying to cut him some slack.

Not that the poll means much.... the results of the next few weeks will tell the tale.

[FargoBison]

Look, I have no problem with Oakland being ranked #9 - they deserve it. But could someone please tell me how SDSU is still lurking outside the Top 25, with NDSU and I-P-F-freaking-W also receiving votes?

ORU probably doesn't deserve to be in the Top 25 - after all, our best wins are at Utah and at IUPUI, which ain't exactly world-beaters. But IPFW hasn't beaten anyone this season with an RPI better than 250! They lost Saturday night 63-47 to a mediocre Valpo team that isn't getting ANY votes in this poll! In short; IPFW sucks! Proof IPFW Sucks

And frankly, I find it amazing that the sole Summit League representative on the panel would see fit to leave both ORU and IUPUI - teams who actually DO have some Top 150 wins under their belts - completely off his ballot. Wonder why he would do that?

NDSU did beat UC Santa Barbara, the favorite to win the Big West and a team that is in the top 100 of both Sagarin and RPI(pretty sure it is the second best non-conference win the Summit has right now per both ratings I mentioned). IUPUI is 3-7 why should they get votes? I guess you could make a stronger case for ORU but your resume isn't anymore impressive than NDSUs.

I still don't get why SDSU gets so much love, I guess voters love their win over Iowa and have forgotten about their losses. IPFW has gotten too much credit for moral victories.

[Old Titan]

NDSU did beat UC Santa Barbara, the favorite to win the Big West and a team that is in the top 100 of both Sagarin and RPI(pretty sure it is the second best non-conference win the Summit has right now per both ratings I mentioned). IUPUI is 3-7 why should they get votes? I guess you could make a stronger case for ORU but your resume isn't anymore impressive than NDSUs.

I still don't get why SDSU gets so much love, I guess voters love their win over Iowa and have forgotten about their losses. IPFW has gotten too much credit for moral victories.

Other than Cal-Santa Barbara (who, despite whatever preseason hype, is actually 5-4 with a 26-point loss their last time out), NDSU's wins are over Denver, Mayville State (is every Dakota school required by law to play them?), Valley City State (wth?), North Dakota, South Dakota State, and UC-Davis.

Please, for the love of Mike - PLAY A BIG BOY SCHEDULE before popping off.

P.S. Utah, who ORU beat at home (which means "not on a neutral floor") has an RPI of 84.

P.P.S. IUPUI is 5-7 with a win at Ohio, a fairly nice little victory.

[FargoBison]

I never popped off, all I said is that your resume wasn't any better than NDSUs. You were the guy who said NDSU didn't have any top 150 wins and made all the crazy statements about how ORU and IUPUI were disrespected somehow.

BTW I'm just fine with our schedule. Nice mix of games.

P.S. I don't count non-DI wins, IUPUI is 3-7. Ohio was a decent win I guess.

[oruvoice]

Don't let Old Titan get to you, his diet is short on fiber.

[ManiacAlum]

Mayville State (is every Dakota school required by law to play them?)

I don't know, but they are in the same conference with the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology (SDSM&T)-- the "Hardrockers":

Dakota Athletic Conference

[Old Titan]

I never popped off, all I said is that your resume wasn't any better than NDSUs.

Yes, you did - and yes, it is.

Show me a D-2, or D-3, or whatever Sunny Valley City State is, on ORU's schedule, and we can talk. Otherwise...

You were the guy who said NDSU didn't have any top 150 wins.

Really? Show me where I said that, and I will send you $1000.

Make that $1,000,000.

I'm merely the guy who pointed out that, beyond UCSB, your wins are hardly impressive.

BTW I'm just fine with our schedule. Nice mix of games.

Then you must really enjoy small college - and I mean small college - basketball.

Does it not concern you that SDSU is the largest school you've beaten?

P.S. I don't count non-DI wins, IUPUI is 3-7. Ohio was a decent win I guess.

Yeah, right: I'm sure if you guys end up at 20-11 and are begging for that CBI bid, you'll be the one saying, "Actually, we're only 18-11 - we don't deserve to go".

Ohio would beat most (if not all) of the teams on NDSU's schedule - but then, who wouldn't?