Around the Summit

[Old Titan]

Man, something is wrong with South Dakota State:  they lost another one at home tonight, 83-72 to a decent-but-nothing-special Kent State team playing its first true road game of the season in Brookings.

The Jackrabbits fall to 4-5 on the season, and against a fairly pedestrian schedule.  Preseason POY Zeke Mayo scored only 12 points tonight, going 3-for-11 from the field with SIX turnovers.  Handful of fans on their forum were using the term "black hole" to describe his lack of leadership on offense; make of that what you will.

Head coach Henderson lost his locker room a few seasons back during the Noah Friedel affair; this season so far smacks of something similar.  With returning starters like Mayo, Luke Appel, and Charlie Easley, they should be playing MUCH better.

 

[Keenan Henderson]

SDSU is going to get their senior point guard Matt Mims back in about 2-3 weeks according to Coach Henderson.  Mims is a solid leader who plays great defense, so that should help the Jackrabbits to improve as they head into conference play.  Mayo is a great player but he struggles at times and then SDSU is very beatable, such as at the Mabee Center last year and in the Summit League Tournament.  I thought last year that McBride really slowed Mayo down in the Eagles wins versus SDSU.

[Dr. Cornelius]

I agree that SDSU is really missing Mims.

Mayo can score but he’s just not a lead guard. He’s much better off the ball.

[Old Titan]

Meanwhile, the Summit League staggers on until January, likely guaranteeing no better than a 15 Seed for the conference tournament champion.

To date, the two best wins by conference members - by far - are St. Thomas' neutral court victory over Portland State (#66 Net, #147 KenPom), and NDSU's home victory in overtime vs. San Jose State (#140 Net, #151 KenPom).

All things considered, ORU is fortunate to be reloading the roster & breaking in a new staff with the league a few notches down from the past few seasons.

[Dave Connor]

Here's a very informative article about Summit League players and the Transfer Portal.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39000974/mid-major-star-zeke-mayo-anomaly-staying-south-dakota-state

[Keenan Henderson]

Did anyone notice that NDSU won 108-14 versus Oak Hill Christian?  They should have called the game at half as it was 60-5!

[tmh8286]

9 minutes ago, Keenan Henderson said:

Did anyone notice that NDSU won 108-14 versus Oak Hill Christian?  They should have called the game at half as it was 60-5!

I think a team made up of our message board posters (with OT as captain, of course) could have scored more than 14!!

Truthfully, I question the benefit of even playing a game like we played on Saturday, other than giving the bench some PT, but 108-14 is almost shameful - and I don't mean for the losers!!

[eagle88]

Here is a question I have: why do we not schedule some competitive D2 teams like Rogers State or UCO instead of Ozark Christian or Midwestern?  Surely good D2 teams would love to play us. It really makes no sense to schedule this weak competition . It seems that many other teams are doing the same thing we are and scheduling weak teams. Not sure the reasoning? I’m open to suggestions 

[GoldenEagleFan]

36 minutes ago, eagle88 said:

Here is a question I have: why do we not schedule some competitive D2 teams like Rogers State or UCO instead of Ozark Christian or Midwestern?  Surely good D2 teams would love to play us. It really makes no sense to schedule this weak competition . It seems that many other teams are doing the same thing we are and scheduling weak teams. Not sure the reasoning? I’m open to suggestions 

Is this a serious question?

[Old Titan]

1 hour ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

Is this a serious question?

Of course it’s a serious question.

How about not being such a troll for once, and instead providing our VERY good “friend of the program” Eagle88 with some of that vaunted insider information of yours re: the sweet science of scheduling?  #smh

[GoldenEagleFan]

55 minutes ago, Old Titan said:

Of course it’s a serious question.

How about not being such a troll for once, and instead providing our good friend (and ORU Athletics donor) Eagle88 with some of that vaunted insider information of yours re: the sweet science of scheduling?  #smh

Would love to… thanks for asking!

There are multiple divisions of NCAA sports (ie: Division I, Division II, Division III) as well as small college athletics governing bodies (ie: NAIA). 
 

D1 schools such as ORU are allowed to schedule no more than 4 Non-Division 1 games per season (some conferences have agreements in place to limit these contests). These games count towards D1 team’s win/loss record, but don’t count against the D1 team’s NET Rating. 
 

As you can imagine, the worst case scenario for these D1 schools and coaches when scheduling and playing these Non D1 games is actually losing the game. There is no need for the outcome of these games to be in jeopardy. In order to secure this most basic end-goal in mind (winning the game), coaches will choose to schedule the easiest competition that all but guarantees the only metric that counts (a check mark in the “win” column). 
 

Imagine you are in the Old West and are required to choose someone to duel on Main Street. The winner survives and the loser is getting buried by the undertaker the next morning. You already have 28 duels scheduled against competition that each have as quick of a quick-draw as you do. But you have the option to choose one to four cowboy(s) to duel that aren’t quite as fast as you are. You can choose someone who has such a slow draw that you all but guarantee yourself to survive. Or you can choose a cowboy that is much closer to your quick-draw speed, risking your life, simply because you want it to be a good show for the townspeople to watch. 
 

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that you survive. Sure, the townspeople hanging around the saloon wish it was a better matchup, but do you yourself really care? Absolutely not. There’s plenty of opportunity to hone your sharpshooting skills against the 28 other cowboys coming down Main Street. 
 

I’m sure there are better illustrations to use, but I did want to answer my good friend @Old Titan before he thought any less of me than he already does! 
 

Until the NET Ratings punishes teams for scheduling these Non D1 teams, you will continue to see lopsided scores in November and December. 
 

Side Note: in the new world of the transfer portal, there are more “D1” players playing D2 than ever before. This phenomenon has created the smallest talent gap between D1 and D2 programs than ever before. Something to take note of when seeing how few number of D2 schools actually play against D1 schools. (Even fewer if you look at D2s vs Mid Major/Low Major D1 schools and take the High Major teams out). 

[eagle88]

8 hours ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

Would love to… thanks for asking!

There are multiple divisions of NCAA sports (ie: Division I, Division II, Division III) as well as small college athletics governing bodies (ie: NAIA). 
 

D1 schools such as ORU are allowed to schedule no more than 4 Non-Division 1 games per season (some conferences have agreements in place to limit these contests). These games count towards D1 team’s win/loss record, but don’t count against the D1 team’s NET Rating. 
 

As you can imagine, the worst case scenario for these D1 schools and coaches when scheduling and playing these Non D1 games is actually losing the game. There is no need for the outcome of these games to be in jeopardy. In order to secure this most basic end-goal in mind (winning the game), coaches will choose to schedule the easiest competition that all but guarantees the only metric that counts (a check mark in the “win” column). 
 

Imagine you are in the Old West and are required to choose someone to duel on Main Street. The winner survives and the loser is getting buried by the undertaker the next morning. You already have 28 duels scheduled against competition that each have as quick of a quick-draw as you do. But you have the option to choose one to four cowboy(s) to duel that aren’t quite as fast as you are. You can choose someone who has such a slow draw that you all but guarantee yourself to survive. Or you can choose a cowboy that is much closer to your quick-draw speed, risking your life, simply because you want it to be a good show for the townspeople to watch. 
 

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that you survive. Sure, the townspeople hanging around the saloon wish it was a better matchup, but do you yourself really care? Absolutely not. There’s plenty of opportunity to hone your sharpshooting skills against the 28 other cowboys coming down Main Street. 
 

I’m sure there are better illustrations to use, but I did want to answer my good friend @Old Titan before he thought any less of me than he already does! 
 

Until the NET Ratings punishes teams for scheduling these Non D1 teams, you will continue to see lopsided scores in November and December. 
 

Side Note: in the new world of the transfer portal, there are more “D1” players playing D2 than ever before. This phenomenon has created the smallest talent gap between D1 and D2 programs than ever before. Something to take note of when seeing how few number of D2 schools actually play against D1 schools. (Even fewer if you look at D2s vs Mid Major/Low Major D1 schools and take the High Major teams out). 

Very good answer. Makes sense on one hand although I digressed 20-30 years back when  things were different and we didn’t deal with such nonsense. Hopefully the metrics change back where we stop rewarding mediocrity! How could I have missed this? After all my grandson who is a junior in high school at Oologah plays football and he told me they barely tackle much before the 1st game. Go figure??

[Old Titan]

*sigh*

I weep for the future.

...wait a minute...the future is here. 

 

[GoldenEagleFan]

10 hours ago, Old Titan said:

How about not being such a troll for once

[Old Titan]

When I think back to experiencing first-hand how giants in this program's early history - right up to President Oral Roberts himself - worked so tirelessly to schedule the best teams possible in order to build the ORU brand, it's shameful to consider that it's come to this:  squatting timidly on those proverbial shoulders to INTENTIONALLY schedule the East Popcorn States of the world, just for empty wins (that do nothing for the NCAA NET rankings).

#AnybodyAnywhereAnytime  #IronSharpensIron

[eagle88]

9 minutes ago, Old Titan said:

When I think back to experiencing first-hand how giants in this program's early history - right up to President Oral Roberts himself - worked so tirelessly to schedule the best teams possible in order to build the ORU brand, it's shameful to consider that we've come to this:  squatting timidly on those proverbial shoulders to INTENTIONALLY schedule the East Popcorn States of the world, just for empty wins (that do nothing for the NCAA NET rankings).

#AnybodyAnywhereAnytime  #IronSharpensIron

OT i couldn't agree more! Although Golden Eagle Fan's answer was good and makes sense in this "modern era" I can't help but ponder in reality our entire season hinges on 3 games in March since we are a 1 bid conference. A sobering fact is we made a much greater run in 2021 when our record was something like 19-12 versus last year when we went 30-5. For the fan's and school's benefit schedule the best teams you can!  The major benefit from our game with Ozark Christian is we got to see potential ORU star Pablo Nararrrrro make his debut. Other than that and some good fellowship it was a long ride back to Oologah!

[GoldenEagleFan]

6 minutes ago, eagle88 said:

OT i couldn't agree more! Although Golden Eagle Fan's answer was good and makes sense in this "modern era" I can't help but ponder in reality our entire season hinges on 3 games in March since we are a 1 bid conference. A sobering fact is we made a much greater run in 2021 when our record was something like 19-12 versus last year when we went 30-5. For the fan's and school's benefit schedule the best teams you can!  The major benefit from our game with Ozark Christian is we got to see potential ORU star Pablo Nararrrrro make his debut. Other than that and some good fellowship it was a long ride back to Oologah!

I agree with most of this. Although I am not tracking with what the overall records had to with the NCAA tournament success. But I know @Old Titan is a kenpom subscriber, as are a number of people on this board, so it is easy to look up the Non Conf SOS from the last several years and see that ORU does in fact play a very competitive non conference schedule. 

Unfortunately as has been discussed on this board, as long as the President keeps the Homecoming game on Friday night, that slot will continue to be a Non D1 game. And you can pretty much bet that the first game after Final Exams will be a Non D1 game (Ozark). And typically a home game during Christmas break when students are not in town will usually be a Non D1 game (John Brown). 

[Old Titan]

33 minutes ago, GoldenEagleFan said:

I agree with most of this. Although I am not tracking with what the overall records had to with the NCAA tournament success. But I know @Old Titan is a kenpom subscriber, as are a number of people on this board, so it is easy to look up the Non Conf SOS from the last several years and see that ORU does in fact play a very competitive non conference schedule. 

Unfortunately as has been discussed on this board, as long as the President keeps the Homecoming game on Friday night, that slot will continue to be a Non D1 game. And you can pretty much bet that the first game after Final Exams will be a Non D1 game (Ozark). And typically a home game during Christmas break when students are not in town will usually be a Non D1 game (John Brown). 

The original question was NOT about the necessity of playing some non-D1 games; it was about the caliber of those non-D1 opponents.

You have presented two different arguments re: why ORU schedules non-D1 opponents:

• One involved the difficulty of finding D1 opponents for certain dates, which is understandable.
• The other promoted facing the worst "gunfighter" available for the easiest win possible, which is embarrassing.

Rhetorical Conclusion:  If ORU has reached the point of fearing to play NCAA D2 programs (with their handful of scholarship players), as opposed to choosing NAIA Division 2 programs (with no scholarship players), then ORU shouldn't be playing at the Division 1 level at all.