University of South Dakota to Join the Summit League in 2011

[s2c]

I'm really interested in knowing the benefit to ORU of the new members, if it's common knowledge that one is planning on dropping baseball... And Denver, if the Summit is looking at them. The conference only seems interested in having enough teams to keep the automatic NCAA bid in baseball and other sports.

UND has no plans to drop baseball.  In fact, most of the scholarship players are now signed out of Oregon and California.  As far as facilities though, baseball is the sport least ready for DI at UND.  USD dropped baseball several years ago, so baseball didn't seem to be critical to USD from the Summit's perspective.  If the Summit really wanted to strengthen it's baseball offerings, it should offer affiliate baseball membership to schools like Houston Baptist, UTPA, Dallas Baptist, or Northern Colorado.

As far as Denver, the question may really be is Denver looking at the Summit.  DU is being evicted from the Sun Belt because they don't offer enough Sun Belt sponsored sports.  Instead, DU offers ice hockey, MW lacrosse, MW skiing, W gymnastics, but not baseball, softball, or M&W track & field or cross country.  Since both DU and UND play in the same ice hockey league and both have 7 national championships, a strong rivalry exists between the two schools on ice.  Perhaps that could carry over into other sports.

[s2c]

"The Ralph" is unbelievable.  A few years ago Kansas played there (Roy Williams always played a game in a seniors homestate - Jeff Boschee is from Valley City) and Chris Piper, who played for Kansas, called it, by far, the nicest arena in college athletics.  They also have a smaller Ralph Engelstead Arena and a Alerus Center, a roughly 21,000 seat arena built in 2001 that UND plays football in (seats 14k for football).  All this in a town of about 50,000 people?

Perhaps if UND was accepted, the Ralph or the Alerus could host the conference tournament.

Here's the Ralph inside and out:

Basketball configuration seats 13,000

Here's the Alerus inside and out:

Alerus is a complex, with a hotel, water park, convention center, and main arena

The stands are moveable to create a basketball configuration

[FargoBison]

I believe it could be used as long as UND doesn't use the facility as a home court during the regular season. That said, wouldn't UND use the Ralph to host conference games with at least NDSU?

[s2c]

I believe it could be used as long as UND doesn't use facility as a home court during the regular season. That said, wouldn't UND use the Ralph to host conference games with at least NDSU?

If the Ralph ever bid on the Summit, the NDSU/UND and any other high attendance games would probably be played at the Alerus. 

[SDSUJacks]

FWIW.....I lived btw Grand Forks and Fargo for 5 years (was up there and worked in GF during the last big flood of the late 90's).  The people are great.  The UND campus is very nice.  The NDSU and UND people are very, very passionate about their programs.  The Dakota schools (SDSU, UND, NDSU, Augustana, Northen State, etc) were always tops in attendance for D2, by a mile.  The UND-NDSU rivalry was featured on ESPN a few years back as one of the best in the country.  Too many stories to tell about this storied rivalry but you always knew when they were close to playing.  UND also has a HUGE rivalry in hockey w/ the U of Minnesota.  UND is located just a few miles off the Minnesota border. 

It's gonna happen.  UND will be in the Summit.  They recently have a D2 football National Championship (doesn't matter in the Summit) and their basketball programs have been mildly successful as of late.  Their men's program has had it's glory days but they are well behind them.  They are a hockey school first and foremost and after that a football school.

The last baseball game I attended at UND was a minor league game featuring JD Drew in his holdout year.  Grand Forks River Rats I believe was the team. 

For the UND people - I coached former UND baseball great JJ Scheving in Babe Ruth.  I was thrilled to watch him pitch for the Fargo-Moorhead Redhawks a few years ago when they were in town.

[oruvoice]

According to the Sun Belt web site, the league has 13 basketball schools in two divisions. Denver is in the West Division (7 teams) that include:

University of LA-Monroe

University of LA-Lafayette

New Orleans

North Texas

UALR

Arkansas State

This looks like the conference we should be in. Not the MVC or the New Summit/Dakota league that we are currently in.

[FargoBison]

This looks like the conference we should be in. Not the MVC or the New Summit/Dakota league that we are currently in.

If you guys only had a football team. Football drives the decision making in a lot of these conferences.

[ORUTerry]

Agreed...... North Texas and the Arkansa schools would make nice road trips for the fan base.

[Hammersmith]

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I've been doing a heart-lung transplant to my computer(new motherboard, processors and RAM), and it hasn't been very stable for the last few days. The last thing I wanted was for it to crash after spending 30+ minutes working on a post.

The title of my homework report is: "Who is UND, and what are they to the Summit(and ORU)?"

In many ways, think of UND as the mirror institution to NDSU. We have somewhat different missions, but we are the same size, attract the same students, have very similar university and athletic budgets, and have similar mixes of strong and weak programs(both academic and athletic). UND was formed from the grant given to newly-ratified states to create a public university. Like many states, North Dakota used the money to build a liberal arts/professional school with medical and law programs. NDSU was created from funds given to North Dakota as part of the Morril Act to create universities with agriculture and applied science programs(engineering). In this way, North Dakota was more like Oklahoma, Colorado or Kansas, than Minnesota, Nebraska or Wyoming(two major state universities rather than one). For about the first 80 years, the schools had distinct missions and there were clear differences between the two. In the last 25 years, the two schools have grown together to the point of the mirror image. NDSU has grown to exceed UND in enrollment and has added a strong business school, while UND has added strong engineering programs and is trying to rival NDSU in research expenditures.

From an athletic point of view, you have to understand that everything at UND revolves around hockey. It has made up as much as 30% of their athletic budget, and most fundraising efforts are channeled through it. Football is the clear number two sport because the season only slightly overlaps with hockey.

So what about the Summit sports?

Men's basketball is currently very weak at UND. They had some glory days, but those are decades past. Currently, they struggle to win contests versus local NAIA schools. This is an improvement over a couple years ago when they were regularly losing to those NAIA schools. To give a sense of perspective, one of the highlights of UND's season this last year was defeating UMKC. We all know how tough it was taking down the Roos(even if NDSU did do their best to lose in one of their matchups).

Women's basketball has been enjoying a very good couple decades. They've had a hard time getting to and winning the DII championship, but they are still a very solid program. Most of their fans think they will follow in SDSU's shoes, but I have my doubts. I fear they will follow NDSU's lead more. I feel their coach, Gene Roebuck, is more like NDSU's Amy Ruley than SDSU's Aaron Johnston. I think UND will have similar problems recruiting out-region talent as NDSU has had. I can't say I'm not biased, so take it with a grain of salt.

Volleyball has traditionally been very weak at UND. They were 6-23 two years ago, and that was only somewhat worse than their typical record. However, they posted a very good 24-8 this last season. Since there were only a couple of full DI teams on their schedule, it's hard to know if their improved record was based on quality of play or quality of schedule(or lack thereof). One of their major problems has been a revolving door of coaches. They will have yet another new coach this fall, as they hired an assistant from NMSU in January.

The three sports above play in the Betty Englestead Sioux Center(or just the Betty). Connected to the Ralph Englestead Arena(hockey), it's a nice, if small, venue. Perfect for volleyball, it's approx. 3100-seat capacity is small for DI basketball. UND used to put the large-drawing games in the Ralph, but they phased that out a few years back. It's unknown whether they will try it again, but hockey scheduling will always reign supreme. The MBB attendance has been reported as strong over the last several years, but that's an illusion. Playing mostly doubleheaders, the fans were showing up for the women's games and then leaving before the men's game started. The fans that left were still counted in the MBB attendance. I expect to see the dropping MBB attendance continue as doubleheaders become increasingly scarce(unless the MBB team completely turns things around). FYI, UND basketball attendance last year was 1463/1813(M/W). This has been a major drop from just five years ago when the tallies were 2791/2313.

You've already seen the facility that UND baseball plays at. It's not the worst of UND's facilities, but it's close. UND's baseball team is historically as bad as NDSU's was, but, like NDSU's, it's beginning to show some signs of life. With a new coach this year, they've done surprisingly well against the DI opposition they've faced(though they did finish 14-29). There's no way to know yet if the decent play was a fluke or a sign of things to come. Like many UND facilities, Kraft Field suffers from being city-owned and off-campus. It's about 1.5 miles from campus and located on the grounds of one of the city's high schools.

UND softball is very similar to baseball. The program has had little success in the past, but has a new coach(2nd year). They struggled worse than the baseball team this year, going 9-33, and they play on a field adjacent to Kraft.

UND's track teams have also been poor and suffer from bad(or no) facilities. UND does not have an indoor track facility and the outdoor facility(at their old football stadium) is in such poor shape that it can't even host high school meets. An indoor practice facility(with track) is at the top of their facilities wish list, but they haven't started the public fundraising for it and we don't know if private fundraising has begun.

UND does have a 9-hole golf course on campus, but our weather means it's rarely ready by the time the NCAA season is over. It's hard to know exactly how good UND will be in golf, because all the old NCC schools faced the same weather problems. I believe SDSU was the class of the old NCC, so I would put UND's level much closer to NDSU's.

Women's soccer is also weak. They finished 5-12-0 in their head coach's first year. They play on a grass field with no improvements that's part of the greater Ralph Engelstead complex. Actually, it's on the other side of the parking lot from UND's bookstore(was a B&N until this winter).

Women's tennis is mediocre. They finished 10-10 this year and practice about 3 miles off-campus at a local fitness center. NDSU doesn't have tennis, so I don't follow the sport very much and can't give a better description of UND's program.

I'm ending on a high note by leaving UND's swim teams until last. They have a very good program and a very nice facility. The Hyslop is about 60 years old, but the pool is only about 30 and is in very good shape. If UND gets into the Summit, expect the conference championships to be up there fairly often(not that ORU has S&D). UND was invited to the C-USA conference championship this year to help fill out the tourney, and they placed toward the back of the pack. From our experience in wrestling, we know how bad the individual competition sports can be hit during a DII to DI transition, so I expect we're just seeing a bit of a down time for UND S&D, and they will be back up in a couple years. If invited into the league, they will be a perennial contender for the Summit crowns.

So wrapping up, while UND is a strong school overall, their strongest sports are not ones that the Summit sponsors. Also, their strongest sports that do overlap with the Summit are not the ones that ORU sponsors or focuses on. In the sports that you care about, UND will not be a challenge. MBB will always play second fiddle to hockey, and I doubt it will get enough support to challenge ORU, OU, NDSU, & IUPUI for the league title. With a total of 20 sports and the Title IX implications of football and hockey to deal with, I expect baseball will be at the very bottom of UND's priority list, if it even survives the budgeting axe. T&F is another area where I doubt UND will compete well with NDSU, SUU & ORU. And I very much doubt UND will compete with you in golf.

Whether you consider this stuff good or bad is up to you. Take it all with a little grain of salt as I'm an NDSU fan and UND is our historical rival. Also, I'm not a huge sports fan, so I might have missed a lot of stuff from the histories of the individual sports.

Personally, I'd rather have Denver in the conference than UND, but it's not by a huge amount. I don't like the idea that some in the Dakotas have(especially from UND/USD) about trying to turn the Summit into the old NCC. At NDSU, we've spent the last few years looking ahead and finding new rivals in DI. The second wave of Dakota schools seem more concerned about recapturing the past than forging a new future. It bothers me.

[s2c]

It’s sadly comical the degree to which NDSU fans follow UND’s programs – their infatuation with our programs seem to reveal a level of anxiety about our capabilities. 

So much of what was written is merely projecting the current situations into the future.  That never works.  When NDSU declared for DI, the programs everyone expected to have a considerable degree of success  were football, wrestling, and women’s basketball.  All of those have fallen short of expectations (football this year anyway)  – but men’s BB, volleyball, and softball have all greatly exceeded them.

“UND used to put the large-drawing games in the Ralph, but they phased that out a few years back. It's unknown whether they will try it again, but hockey scheduling will always reign supreme. The MBB attendance has been reported as strong over the last several years, but that's an illusion. Playing mostly doubleheaders, the fans were showing up for the women's games and then leaving before the men's game started.”

First off, UND can easily request weekends for basketball at the 12,000 seat Ralph by scheduling with the WCHA.  Wisconsin is capable of doing it.  MBB attendance is not an illusion for the past year.  If you would actually look at the schedule, most of the men’s games were single games and without schools of interest.  Next year, the home schedule is almost entirely DI with schools like Northern Iowa (more like the women's schedule this year).  Many people do leave during the men’s game if there is a double header, but it gets late and 4 hours is long for anyone to sit through. 

“MBB will always play second fiddle to hockey, and I doubt it will get enough support to challenge ORU, OU, NDSU, & IUPUI for the league title.”

It’s seems rather egotistical that NDSU fans now consider their men’s basketball program some sort of mid-major power.  Of all four Dakota schools, NDSU had by far the worst men’s basketball tradition and hardly experienced post-season play even in DII.  Essentially the now Colorado State coach is the main person responsible for the last few seasons of success.  It’s entirely possible NDSU basketball was just a momentary flash in the pan – not to be seen again for a generation.  When NDSU started the DI move, the major facility to be redone was their basketball “arena”, the Bison Sports Arena (BSA).  It’s still not done.  If anyone has ever witnessed a game there, one would wonder how anyone would voluntarily sign to play there. 

As far as hockey, 11,600 paying fans @ $25 a pop for 20 odd games pays a lot of bills.  When it’s considered that most of the season ticket fans also have a pay a seat license to the Fighting Sioux club to even buy a season hockey ticket, not many schools have that kind of cash machine.  Florida is by no stretch a basketball school  (and UND hockey is not by no stretch Florida football).  Yet the Gators still seemed to have a level of success in basketball, by and large by the money football generates.

“UND does not have an indoor track facility and the outdoor facility(at their old football stadium) is in such poor shape that it can't even host high school meets. An indoor practice facility(with track) is at the top of their facilities wish list, but they haven't started the public fundraising for it and we don't know if private fundraising has begun.”

This is a beyond a stretch:  UND and the city of Bismarck have the only facilities in ND that are considered for the state HS track meet.  To say it can’t host high school meets is a total distortion.  As far as an indoor track and practice facility, if and when UND builds that, essentially all it’s sports would have a first-class rate facility for at least practice. 

What’s been conveniently left out are plans to use the indoor Alerus Center football field for indoor track meets and softball tournaments.  The Alerus  can also be basketball venue in a pinch if the REA is unavailable due to scheduling.  How many Summit schools  have a package like this:  a 12,00 seat world-class arena, another rentable indoor facility (13,000 for football) for many sports like indoor track, softball, basketball, and even soccer if field turf was added, as well as a 3200 seat practice facility, and an older 6000 seat fieldhouse where many of the non-revenue sports teams work out?

What’s interesting in this thread is that neither the University of South Dakota’s athletic facilities and programs, nor SDSU’s, nor NDSU’s were ever were parsed to this degree.  As far as facilities, USD basically has an inadequate 35 year old DakotaDome that services everyone of their athletic teams except swimming.  For its own facilities, NDSU has great baseball field (but horrible spring weather), good football (except practice), adequate wrestling and volleyball, and basically poor in everything else.  Due to lack of facilities, NDSU’s flagship sport of football couldn’t even hold normal spring drills until the weather broke late. 

At NDSU, we've spent the last few years looking ahead and finding new rivals in DI.  The second wave of Dakota schools seem more concerned about recapturing the past than forging a new future. It bothers me.

Again, with the constant obsession about UND on the NDSU’s and other boards, what bothers you and other NDSU fans appears to be anxiety.

[FargoBison]

Must try not to smack.....UND would be a fine addition to the league. They could maybe even beat Valpo in basketball and their fans are more pleseant than Ron Hunter.

[s2c]

Kind of cool to get negative-repped by an NDSU fan on a ORU board.    Sorry, ORU fans. 

[FargoBison]

I don't even know how this whole rep thing works, you can see who hit you with a + or - ? I've been trying to figure out how to hit people with + for a year now.

[SDSUJacks]

Again, with the constant obsession about UND on the NDSU’s and other boards, what bothers you and other NDSU fans appears to be anxiety.

Not sure about the NDSU board (Bisonville).  I have been over there and they don't seem to obsess over UND.  I can speak for the SDSU board and people and say that UND is far from an obsession.  I lived in the UND area and worked a few blocks from the campus (worked w/ Jim Kleinsassers roommate) and it's a fine school w/ a passionate fan base.  The UND Hockey program is outstanding and the football program has been very good to, at least, respectable.  Too bad those two programs won't help UND in the Summit.  I'm biased but I think the addition of UND is positive for the Summit. 

UND has a proud history in basketball but I don't view the future too promising for UND, in men's or women's hoops.

[Old Titan]

The riffs between the "Uof's" and the "State's" in the Dakotas remind me of the OU-OSU rivalry here in Oklahoma.

Aggies vs. Preppies, in snowshoes.

Enjoyed your synopsis, Hammersmith - good writing.

[Hammersmith]

The riffs between the "Uof's" and the "State's" in the Dakotas remind me of the OU-OSU rivalry here in Oklahoma.

Aggies vs. Preppies, in snowshoes.

Enjoyed your synopsis, Hammersmith - good writing.

Thanks. I tried to keep it short, but even two or three sentence synopses stack up when you have to cover 17 sports plus some background and conclusions.

I'm not going to address star's(star2city or s2c) points one by one, because I think I made it fairly clear what was fact and what was my opinion in my long post. We all know that past performance does not dictate future results, but, when the future is unknown, sometimes that past performance is all we have to go on.

The only part of his post that I want to directly comment on was about UND's track. I didn't come up with that out of thin air. A couple years ago, a Grand Forks sportswriter either wrote an article or a blog post about the state of track facilities in the city. He said it was an embarrassment that a city with three public high schools(2 in ND/1 in MN) and a medium-sized university did not have a quality regulation outdoor or indoor track facility. He stated that the high school-owned facilities and UND's all had problems that kept them from being competition-worthy. It was true that Grand Forks used to host the state meet, but no longer. In a state that normally rotates event locations between at least two sites, the state track meet is scheduled to be held in only Bismarck for at least another three years. Considering that it's also been held in Bismarck for the previous three years(2007-12 all together), I have to think Grand Forks is no longer in the running. In fact, I think it was the decision of the High School Activities Association to remove Grand Forks from consideration that prompted the article or blog post that I read.

Sorry about posting something that none of you care about, but I don't make up facts and I care about my reputation; online, it's all you got. We can disagree on opinions and predictions all day long, but being wrong about facts is something I try to avoid at all costs.

...

Actually, I tried searching again and found the article I read. It's from the pay portion of the newspaper's archives, so I'll just quote a part of it.

Trying to get back on track

Tom Miller, Grand Forks Herald

May 25 2008

It’s been three years since the North Dakota high school state track meet left UND’s Memorial Stadium.

After hosting the combined Class A and B boys and girls meet for 20 years, an aging Memorial Stadium complex prompted state officials to move the meet to Bismarck in 2006.

With the state meet ending Saturday at the Bismarck Community Bowl, it serves as a reminder of the deteriorating track facilities in Grand Forks and East Grand Forks.

At one point this spring, the cities didn’t have a track capable of hosting a large meet.

The Memorial Stadium track hasn’t been touched since 1993 and the jumping areas surrounding it since 1986. East Grand Forks Senior High was scheduled to host two section track meets this spring but poor track conditions forced officials to ship the meets elsewhere. And the track at Cushman Field was given temporary fixes mid-spring to host a handful of meets.

...

UND is in the same situation. The Sioux haven’t hosted a meet in five years.

“Nothing has been done to the jumping areas since 1986, when they were initially put in,” Clay said. “Nothing’s been done with the track since 1993, so it went through (the flood of 1997).”