orumom Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I TRIED BEING FRIENDLY, AND END THE CONVERSATION, BUT CERTAIN ORU FANS ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO FUEL THE FIRE... That's a bunch of bunk. If that were true you would stay on your own board. Every board out there is going to defend it's own team. Your comments on Watson....knowing somone his mama got into it with in the parking lot (the ORU person was minding their own business walking to their car & didn't even know who she was) her son's stomping on our mascot in the center of the floor, etc. -----------I think it's better we just move on. If the gun is pointed at your enemy you don't see a problem. If it's pointed at you, there's a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Why won't Day win POY? Because it's POY, not MVP. I have no idea what kind of distinction you are trying to draw here. Help me out? What exactly is the difference between POY and MVP in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I have no idea what kind of distinction you are trying to draw here. Help me out? What exactly is the difference between POY and MVP in your opinion? Haven't I seen this EXACT SAME discussion on the Valpo board in past years?? This whole discussion is taking on a very Valpoesque tone to it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I'll say this - agree or disagree with ANDROO about Quinton Day, the discussion has certainly kept me entertained today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Haven't I seen this EXACT SAME discussion on the Valpo board in past years?? This whole discussion is taking on a very Valpoesque tone to it!! I'd have to know what MadAdder's definitions are before it can jog my memory, but taking a giant leap... It sounds enough like the bogus distinction made in MLB between MVP and this Henry Aaron award for "the best player" - i.e., the player with the best stats. Again, there are certain key differences between baseball and basketball in terms of how "scoring" opportunities are divided up, so I don't know how well this example will translate into the current discussion. As best as I can tell, most MLB pundits define MVP as the player who makes the biggest difference in his team's regular season finish. Most often that literally means making the playoffs. A few do say that they invoke this "tie-breaker" only when there are more than one very worthy candidate in terms of individual performance. The Henry Aaron award was conjured up to throw a bone to guys like A-Rod when he played for last place Texas and had such incredible stats. My response to this: Buffalo Bagels! It is a phony distinction, one that essentially renders the MVP award as something that some players are - by virtue of the team they play on - not eligible for the award, and I'm quite sure that when the award was created, no such exclusion was ever contemplated. ALL players on ALL teams are equally eligible for the award. Secondly, the notion of which single player made the biggest impact in his team's standing after 162 games is totally subjective and very hard to measure accurately. There are a million variables that determine the outcome of any given baseball game, to say nothing about those factors that hurt other teams and therefore help yours (injuries, etc.) Third, the true definition of MVP as it was originally established by MLB was almost certainly devoid of any notion of team standings at the end of the season. Look at the literal words: MOST VALUABLE. The player who, all by himself, gives his team the more value than any other player gives to their team. What is value? There are certainly a lot of intangibles that can be observed but not measured. No one ever said it had to be a perfect award. But there is one thing about a baseball game that is of singular and paramount importance: scoring runs and preventing the other team from scoring runs. The former is easier to measure than the latter, but neither is completely straightforward, because we keep track of how many runs a team scores and how many times an individual player crosses the plate, but no individual player scores a run solely on his own talent or ability unless he hits a homerun or steals 3 bases in a row. The overwhelming majority of runs that score happen because ANOTHER teammate DRIVES IN our hypothetical player. He gets a RS and the other guy gets an RBI (forgetting for the moment runs that are unearned and score because of an error), but that is like saying all players who compete for the award get to have ringers on their side to "help" them reach their goal, as if that makes it okay. The only things a player does without "help" are get hits, walks, HBPs, and steal bases. As a matter of fact, a player can actually ruin a teammates chance to compete for the award by hitting into a GIDP, and a sensible formula penalizes a player for that. And of course a CS should also be counted against him. The objective of the game is score more runs than the other team. The way you score runs is by getting runners on base safely and advancing them. It makes sense that a player's ability to get on base (A) and his ability to advance runners, including himself, ( should be used somehow to calculate how many runs he "creates" for his team. At least one such formula has been tested for as many seasons as there are accurate records for: A x B / C, where C is the total number of opportunities (i.e., plate appearances). When the formula is tested on team stats, the overwhelming majority of team totals for Runs Created matches Runs Scored within a very good margin of error. There are other formulas that may be just as good or even better, but this is the one I'm familiar with. I have to admit that this leaves out defensive value, and I have nothing for filling in that blank. But at least with offensive value, I would assert this much: value is what the individual player contributes to the team. What the team DOES with that value is an entirely different matter and beyond the scope of the MVP award in my opinion. Hence, to me the MVP IS the player with the best stats and the Henry Aaron award is superfluous to me. How well does this analysis translate onto the basketball court? That's what I'm not entirely sure of. But I would start with a mind open enough to consider the possibility that the POY can be a player for Centenary. Is it LIKELY? No, of course not, but ONLY because it is likely that when we look at individual stats at the end of the year, no single CC player will do well enough to garner better stats than say, Green or Oppland or Hill or Day. But to say - from the start - that CC players cannot win the award simply because CC probably won't make the tournament is a bogus argument in my book. More than you wanted to know, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EagleBackr Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Witnessing Androo's stark descent into total meltdown in these posts was hysterical! I kept envisioning John Belushi sitting next to Jane Curtain on "Weekend Update" - the editorial starts out somewhat even-handed, but it's not long until the true, deep-seated venom erupts to the surface, and he chokes on his own screaming and pitches over the desk! Fact: No one from ORU cursed Michael Watson. In 15 years of going to ORU games, including four years in the student section, I have NEVER heard an ORU fan, student or otherwise, curse an opposing player or coach. Ever. Honest. Fact: I personally saw and heard Watson curse and make hand gestures at the ORU Blue Crew student section during the second half of his last game at ORU and after the game. Scouts honor. Fact: Michael Watson could go for 30 points against ORU by just DRIVING BY Mabee Center. He OWNED us. Period. Fact: Quinton Day is really good. Caleb Green is really good. Dan Oppland is really good (after all, he's a warrior, remember?). That's why they'll all make 1st team All-Conference. Player of the Year will probably go to the one whose team finishes highest. Game. Set. Match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDROO Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 The student section was heckling him all game,, and did say some curse words....and if watson did curse back,, good for him,,, his game backed up his talk... Its too bad a great team like ORU underachieves year in and year out...... You get out coached 80% of the time,,, win or lose..... Just because his name is Sutton doesnt mean he can coach.... Dissapointing a great university with good talent cant be an NCAA tourney team... Frustrates me as a MID-CON fan..... how about them kangaroos tonight...... down 26 in 1st half against ND STATE....Yikes....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUIsbig Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 "OUT COACHED,, OUT PLAYED,,,, OUT HUSTLED EVERYTIME YOU PLAY UMKC..... " I have no oppinion about POY, But ANDROO has a point. Day killed us last year. UMKC killed us last year. ORU failed to do anything against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 ANDROO, last year we won 25 games. How can you say that we were out-coached 80% of the time? You're starting to sound like Isbig. Tell me this - UMKC plays ORU on Jan. 30 in KC and on Feb. 16 in Tulsa. Will you be back to take the heat if your team doesn't "own" us in either of those games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDROO Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 I would really hope your talent alone would be able to win this game.... You have superior talent to everyone in the league with valpo that can somewhat compare....... You should not lose any conference games with the talent you have.. It is unreal with your talent.....UMKC is playing a very young team and were still learning how to gel... I wish coach Z could have half your talent...I have a hard time with ORU being happy with results they have been given.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizz Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 A few questions for you roo? How many NCAA tourny appearences do the roo's have. Is not the coaches job to get talent...so does that mean Coach Z can't coach since he does not have half the talent as ORU. How would you know anything about Cal Wooton after watching him one time in a game that UMKC put a box and 1 on him and he still had 19 points. He's a bad kid based on what you saw. Well based on what I saw of Watson he is a mass killer from his games at Oakland but no one here would make a statement like that since they really don't know what kind of kid he is. Just as you don't know if Kampe likes to coach Wooton or not. Here is my answer to all your stupid ranting...your a jerk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 The student section was heckling him all game,, and did say some curse words....and if watson did curse back,, good for him,,, his game backed up his talk... There is a differrence between heckling and cursing, and Watson should have let his game do ALL the talking. Players who respond to fans during the game do not impress me much. I don't think it impresses coaches much either. It does impress said fans, however - impressed at themselves for getting under the player's skin. The fact that Watson could still pour in his points in the midst of that testifies to his mettle, but not his character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadAdder Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 My thoughts are this - POY goes to the player with the best stats. MVP is more about the player who helped out their team the most. Hypothetical example - Forward A averages 25 points and 13 boards a game, no one else on his team has any talent, and his team finishes as a 4 seed at the end of the regular season. Forward B averages 20 points and 10 boards a game, but has 2 more teammates who are in the top 10 in the conference in scoring. His team finishes as the #1 seed going into the conference tourney. Forward B is probably the better player, but he doesn't need to shoulder the load because of the talent around him, so his numbers aren't as high. In this case I'd give Forward B the POY, but I'd say that Forward A would get the MVP award (if one existed in the Mid-Con). Forward B is likely a better player, but his team could probably survive without him, whereas if Forward A got hurt, his team would get blown out all the time. That was my line of thinking of all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 A few questions for you roo? How many NCAA tourny appearences do the roo's have. Is not the coaches job to get talent...so does that mean Coach Z can't coach since he does not have half the talent as ORU. How would you know anything about Cal Wooton after watching him one time in a game that UMKC put a box and 1 on him and he still had 19 points. He's a bad kid based on what you saw. Well based on what I saw of Watson he is a mass killer from his games at Oakland but no one here would make a statement like that since they really don't know what kind of kid he is. Just as you don't know if Kampe likes to coach Wooton or not. Here is my answer to all your stupid ranting...your a jerk I watched Wooten in person last night and I was much more impressed with him than I ever was with Helms. It is way too early to assess Wooten's "attitude". A far more favorablle comparison for Watson would be Helms, and as time went on I thought Watson matured better than Helms did. But, apart from the permanent pained look on Wooten's face, I have detected no such attitude problem, and I've seen him twice in person and twice on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDROO Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 To Grizz, I have never once stated that coach Z is a great coach.. I do beleive he is decent... We have not been to any NCAA tournaments, or have any conference banners... We got beat on a 76 foot shot, and a fade away 3 last year at the buzzer.. That cost are first championship......... ORU has great tradition, and have much respect for their program, along with VALPO and IUPUI... They all have been class acts and have won... Umkc I truly think is on the right track...... I was in attendance in kansas city on saturday, i recall some teamates yelling and screaming at eachother, with wooten doing most of it... He honestly said the F word 3 or 4 different times on bad calls... Seemed to me he had a bad attitude..Sorry for stating my opinion.......I hope someday the ROOS will be in a class with VALPO and ORU but for now were trying our butts off to get there... I really did not intend to start an argument.. I have posted on many diffrent walls and never had much complaint......Have no idea why this is gotten so out of hand.. To say I am a jerk, thats fine, you have stated in opinion with out even meeting me, but for judging me for sticking up for a friend of mine Mike Watson and trying to defend a great player in Day... Cant we all enjoy a good mid-con race this season.. There are 4 teams neck and neck right now competing for the title.......Cant wait to see what happens from here on out..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oruvoice Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 A few questions for you roo? How many NCAA tourny appearences do the roo's have. Is not the coaches job to get talent...so does that mean Coach Z can't coach since he does not have half the talent as ORU. How would you know anything about Cal Wooton after watching him one time in a game that UMKC put a box and 1 on him and he still had 19 points. He's a bad kid based on what you saw. Well based on what I saw of Watson he is a mass killer from his games at Oakland but no one here would make a statement like that since they really don't know what kind of kid he is. Just as you don't know if Kampe likes to coach Wooton or not. Here is my answer to all your stupid ranting...your a jerk OMG!!! An Oakland fan pulling the "NCAA tourney card" on a friggin "Roo" fan on the ORU board! How horrific can it be for us ORU fans? I feel sick at my stomach! All I need now is for SUU fans to get into it with Centenary fans on our board and my misery will be made complete! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 ANDROO got a little more ammo for his cause last night - Quinton Day scored 24 points in a losing effort at North Dakota State. The Roos lost to the Bison 87-63. The travel would be a bear, but it sounds like NDSU would at least provide a little more competition if they were admitted to the Mid-Con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blevins Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Day was also held scoreless in the first half... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.