Impact of the Mayors Cup

[Dr. Cornelius]

Some (especially TU fans) are of the opinion that the annual Mayor's Cup game is of no real significance. Since ORU has nothing to gain from beating TU (and in the past TU has had nothing to gain from beating ORU) does this game still matter? I think it does?

This game plays a role in the recruiting of local talent. Local players are key to the development and health of both programs. With ORU recruiting 2 (and almost 3 with Godbold) of the last 3 Oklahoma high school players of the year TU has been stuck with players like Ramsdell and Mitchell. Local players matter. Period. If you can't recruit your own backyard how can you expect to recruit anywhere else?

[JoeyO]

There is no question that this game is significant. I think it's laughable that TU fans are already downplaying this game, preempting a loss. This is for a recruiting edge and bragging rights -- of course it's important. Do you think that TU fans would say this game is insignificant if they ended up winning Saturday night?

[Guest EagleBackr]

TU fans are hoping no one will notice the game is being played - they're pretty much in denial about this whole season already. Not much optimism coming from their side of the fence. Bracing themselves for the possibility of another 20+ loss season, I suppose. But just watch what will happen if they pull off the upset: Wojo-mania!!

[tmh8286]

In reality, even when TU had the dominant program TU fans said the game was insignificant. Winning the game only added credence to their claims of ORU as the red haired stepchild of D1 basketball.

In making that claim this year they are only being consistent - but justifying that view has become more problematic.

[Dr. Cornelius]

But just watch what will happen if they pull off the upset: Wojo-mania!!

Just between you and me... the guy is in WAYYY over his head.

[ORUTerry]

I am waiting to post my impressions and analysis of this game until after tonight's TU game against Oklahoma.....

This game does matter - it always has. That is why the game is typically so hard fought. Over the last 10 years (excepting last year) the game has come down to the last few possessions. One program is in acsendancy and the other in a downward spiral. The worm has turned.

[Guest EagleBackr]

Over on the TU message board, one of our TU favorites has started a similar thread in response to this one. When asked by one of our own why he didn't just post his opinion over here in the first place, he said "I don't want to get banned AGAIN for being a TU fan". Has anyone ever been banned from this board, or any other ORU message board, just for being a TU fan? Laughable. Also started his thread with one of those, "I don't usually read the ORU message boards, but..." disclaimers. Reminds me of people who dryly say, "I don't usually watch TV, but did you happen you see that episode of 'Desperate Housewives' last night?" C'mon, admit it: we know you read our message board! And we know you watch "Desperate Housewives", too!

[oruvoice]

Gold is.....SPECIAL.

He references ORU in threads all the time. He is a bit on the extreme, but don't let him or any other TU fan fool you. The ORU game is VERY important to them. It was important in the 70's when they hired a coach primarily to beat ORU and it is now. We passed them two years ago and it hurts losing to little brother.

[Dr. Cornelius]

I don't see how the issue of TU's recent recruits versus ours can even be honestly debated. Ours are good; theirs are not.

In the case of Mitchell, yes ORU offered Mitchell with the understanding that he would redshirt and be a role player in the coming years on an already deep team. TU offered him a chance to come right off the bench and contribute to an anemic frontcourt. For us Michell was a project, in TU?s mind he is a player that must produce NOW. Mitchell chose TU because he didn?t want to play behind anyone or redshirt; his choice. Personally, I?m glad we didn?t waste the scholarship.

Ramsdell has been a total bust. I credit Sutton and staff for recognizing his softness in all areas and focusing on Green.

Just this past off season we've pick up:

Adam Liberty... a transfer from the MCV.

Jeremy Hazell... a prep school standout.

Shawn King... a top 25 junior college big man.

The talent and recruiting levels are obvious. I would take our players and our chances in the Mid-Con over being a C-USA bottom feeder any day.

[Gold*]

This begs a question: when was the last time that TU and ORU both offered a player and that player chose ORU? ORU has some players that TU SHOULD HAVE recruited, but we didn't offer any as far as I can tell. Green: historic non-offer from TU. Tutt: McDade/Kelly instead. Michalec(s/p): we took Keita (another miss). TU looked at Bluitt, but passed because our surplus of short, fast guards under Peterson (he hated that aspect of our team) and I'm not sure he qualified out of HS (that might be wrong, though). We didn't recruit Owens and I don't think Wojcik looked at Vealy.

You reference Mitchell and Ramsdell as the sorts of players that TU is forced to recruit from losing. Last I checked, we beat ORU the year we signed Ramsdell and were at the top of our game prestige-wise (remember, we lost when he was a freshman and he signed as a high school junior) and he was recruited by OSU, too, and not ORU. And, I might be confused, but didn't ORU offer Mitchell and have to get someone else instead?

My take is the game, as of yet, has not had a big impact on recruiting. TU gets players ORU is after when they want them, whether that's before they sign or after.

[oruvoice]

See Gold...you can post a legitimate opinion without resulting to name calling and crude jokes! Good job, little fella!

And to your point, it is a valid one. TU has more clout because of recent history and conference affiliation. ORU gave that advantage to TU in the mid '80's when we left the Midwest Collegiate Conference. Back then, we were a LEGIT mid-major on the same level of a TU. And in the 70's we were ahead of TU on those levels!

That said, we may get back there in the future. If there is another BIG conference shake up, we may one day end up in the Valley or similar. Then it's a whole new ball game.

[Gold*]

I don't see how the issue of TU's recent recruits versus ours can even be honestly debated. Ours are good; theirs are not.

In the case of Mitchell, yes ORU offered Mitchell with the understanding that he would redshirt and be a role player in the coming years on an already deep team. TU offered him a chance to come right off the bench and contribute to an anemic frontcourt. For us Michell was a project, in TU?s mind he is a player that must produce NOW. Mitchell chose TU because he didn?t want to play behind anyone or redshirt; his choice. Personally, I?m glad we didn?t waste the scholarship.

Ramsdell has been a total bust. I credit Sutton and staff for recognizing his softness in all areas and focusing on Green.

Just this past off season we've pick up:

Adam Liberty... a transfer from the MCV.

Jeremy Hazell... a prep school standout.

Shawn King... a top 25 junior college big man.

The talent and recruiting levels are obvious. I would take our players and our chances in the Mid-Con over being a C-USA bottom feeder any day.

Mitchell was supposed to redshirt, but he's looked like a good player and you're right, we need him now. He doesn't start. He's not going to be an All American anytime soon, but I sure hope Sutton dismisses him like you are. He's a tough kid.

Please dismiss Ramsdell, too. That will help Saturday -- he's our most improved player. He's become a leader. You're right that he wasn't what he was hyped to be his first two years. A lot of that goes back to the old staff's bizarre decisions -- he was the best candidate for a redshirt I've ever seen and just wasn't coached right. We'll look back in anger next year when we lose him. If w had him another year, he would have been a Kevin Johnson like player for us -- KJ didn't show anything until his third year, either. Scott Sutton never got a whiff of Charles -- Eddie wanted him. He's not going to be a bruiser in the post as he's one skinny dude, but he's looked very good early in the year.

Tulsa recruited Liberty in high school and passed on him. I know that you ORU fans don't have the recruiting service stuff have had -- you definitely didn't have the access three or four years back when he was a high school senior. He's a good player, but we took McDade and Kelly instead.

I'll give ORU some props for getting some impressive recruits of late. But TU is holding its own. We signed Jamel McLean in the fall and have one scholarship, at least, to give out in the spring. McLean is a 6'8 rebounder that was offered by Pittsburgh, Virginia, and got a whiff from Maryland. We got beat by Cal a point guard out of Chicago we really wanted, but we're finally recruiting against good schools again instead of Nicholls State and Texas School for the Blind (in this case of Gonzalez, Davis, Baker, and Cardwell).

We also signed a couple of other good players last spring. Ray Reese looks like the real deal and should be in the starting lineup Saturday -- he can guard bigger players and rebound, but also shoot from outside and guard quick players. Darold Crow got some interest from Tennessee before we signed him and has started all year. Sean Coleman was getting interest from Big East and ACC schools, but they wanted him to go to prep school first. Ashton Hall, perhaps our most hyped recruit, is out with some injuries and being redshirted -- give him a couple of years.

We're following our old model that got us a long way -- developing underecruited players that are good athletes. Our biggest downfall was having three coaches in three years as that obliterated our recruiting. We stuck with a solid core, but didn't find the right guys after that old talent well ran dry. It may take a year or two, but our recruiting is night and day better than what it was.

[Gold*]

See Gold...you can post a legitimate opinion without resulting to name calling and crude jokes! Good job, little fella!

And to your point, it is a valid one. TU has more clout because of recent history and conference affiliation. ORU gave that advantage to TU in the mid '80's when we left the Midwest Collegiate Conference. Back then, we were a LEGIT mid-major on the same level of a TU. And in the 70's we were ahead of TU on those levels!

That said, we may get back there in the future. If there is another BIG conference shake up, we may one day end up in the Valley or similar. Then it's a whole new ball game.

I think ORU needs to do everything they can to get in the Valley. It's a way to get much more credibility. It's also a way to get bad refs and have your older fans attacked by them.

I think ORU can get there without another shakeup like the one that just happened a couple of years back. I at least don't want to happen -- that means TU will have to move again and I'm really happy where we are.

I should add that I think ORU's recent success really is a tribute to their coaching staff. They identified the right players and developed them the right way, whereas TU recruited several bizarre players and passed on other gimmees (the Joey Graham decision irks me more than Caleb Green). TU worried too much about Rivals and the motion offense.

I'm not sure Phillips was all that bad of a coach -- he was awesome his first two years. He wasn't much of a "Ra Ra" guy and hired some bad assistants and had some dumb luck in other cases. ORU saw the ball loose and pounced on it a couple of times and got lucky a couple of more.

[Gold*]

Over on the TU message board, one of our TU favorites has started a similar thread in response to this one. When asked by one of our own why he didn't just post his opinion over here in the first place, he said "I don't want to get banned AGAIN for being a TU fan". Has anyone ever been banned from this board, or any other ORU message board, just for being a TU fan? Laughable. Also started his thread with one of those, "I don't usually read the ORU message boards, but..." disclaimers. Reminds me of people who dryly say, "I don't usually watch TV, but did you happen you see that episode of 'Desperate Housewives' last night?" C'mon, admit it: we know you read our message board! And we know you watch "Desperate Housewives", too!

You, on the other hand, watch Godzilla. Nuff said. I expect you to make more "responsible arguments."

I thought you were done with me, buddy? Did you have to do another billboard? I'd

[vcboy2000]

I can't comment on the history of recruiting between the schools because i have only been an ORU fan for 6 years. I've heard that ORU dominated in the 70's, but when we left the NCAA we lost a lot of momentum. The 80's saw TU start to dominate the series.

Personally, i think the rivalry would affect the newbies that are coming up that are not familiar with TU's winning tradition in the mid 80's on up to 2002. A kid is going to go a program that he sees winning. I grew up in the great state of north carolina, and the only school kids wanted to attend to play ball was North Carolina or Duke. Nobody mentioned Wake Forest (good school) or even North Carolina State. It was all about who was winning.

Of course this whole debate is pointless if the level of in-state players are not high. I would think that both schools would want to increase the level of recruitment all around instead of competing for medicre in-state talent.

[oruvoice]

Two more excellent posts Gold! Seriously, awesome.

I'm feeling really good about me and you right now. Maybe saturday, you can come down to the scorer's table and we can share a manly hug!

[Gold*]

I am waiting to post my impressions and analysis of this game until after tonight's TU game against Oklahoma.....

This game does matter - it always has. That is why the game is typically so hard fought. Over the last 10 years (excepting last year) the game has come down to the last few possessions. One program is in acsendancy and the other in a downward spiral. The worm has turned.

The downward spiral is long over. We hit rock bottom -- actually, subterrainean -- last year against Lamar. Losing to Billy Tubbs at home is a mortal sin at TU. Look at today's paper and you'll see why.

It's a long road to the top again, but you have to start out on bottom if you want to get there. There are some positive signs of change -- even the Voice has admitted it -- but we're not quite ready for prime time. Don't ignore the changes, lest you make the same mistakes we did.

We're really limited Saturday because to win, we'd have to get really good guard play. Our starting point guard is out for the year. Unless someone stands up who hasn't, we just don't have much. But we do have a couple of new players that play good D.

[ORUTerry]

The ORU coaches liked Mitchell from what I heard.... Said he had a lot of upside as a player and that he was a tough kid. We told him he would be red-shirted. Ramsdell is also a good player who has been misused.... he is actually a three but is forced to play in the post.

The ORU coaches have (and continue) done a great job of evaluating talent. Our recent success (thank you Caleb Green and Ken Tutt) have allowed us to go after more high profile players (King and Hazzel) rather than overlooked diamonds.