oruvoice Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I have lunch with the Golden Eagle Club board this friday, sorry. Thursday works..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Marshall Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I have lunch with the Golden Eagle Club board this friday, sorry. Thursday works..... O.T. ... nice suggestion actually; I'd gladly "host" a "posters luncheon" on Friday ... 12 noon, Goldies at 61st & Sheridan, and I'll buy for whoever shows up. I'll be working in Branson/Springfield, MO on Wednesday and Thursday (returning home in time for the Oakland game 'cause that's what fans do, they drive 3 hours to watch their team play!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Man, Rob, I'd take you up on that offer in an instant. Good food and good company. But I'll be with voice . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Marshall Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Chad Wilkerson and Blake Moses were seniors in 1998-99, Hinson's last year. They weren't starters? Edit to add: and Chad was the Mid-Con Player of the Year. You're correct about Blake and Chad, and yes, "Slim" (Wilkerson) was the Mid Con POY in 98-99. Chad did graduate in 99, however Nate Binam (remember THE THREE that hit everything possible including the bottom of the net to hand Bill Self's Tulsa Golden Hurricane one (1) of their five (5) losses that season) returned from from his red-shirt season following an auto accident (and Binam had been a starter in 97-98). Chad and Blake were lost to graduation, but Nate returned along with Eric Perry, Derrick Taylor, Reggie Tate and Leon Irving who had all started during the 98-99 season. Bottom line, that team had enough talent and returning players to compete to repeat and win the league "back to back," but they finished 5th. There were some off the court issues with that team and I think a lot of that may have had to do with a young, inexperienced coaching staff. Perhaps that's what happened in the next couple of years too (young and inexperienced coaching staff) but they have obviously figured it out and are doing a terrific job for ORU now. Again, I just think it's weak that so many people around ORU have blamed Barry Hinson for the dip in ORU basketball following his departure for Springfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Minyard Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 You're correct about Blake and Chad, and yes, "Slim" (Wilkerson) was the Mid Con POY in 98-99. Chad did graduate in 99, however Nate Binam (remember THE THREE that hit everything possible including the bottom of the net to hand Bill Self's Tulsa Golden Hurricane one (1) of their five (5) losses that season) returned from from his red-shirt season following an auto accident (and Binam had been a starter in 97-98). Chad and Blake were lost to graduation, but Nate returned along with Eric Perry, Derrick Taylor, Reggie Tate and Leon Irving who had all started during the 98-99 season. Bottom line, that team had enough talent and returning players to compete to repeat and win the league "back to back," but they finished 5th. There were some off the court issues with that team and I think a lot of that may have had to do with a young, inexperienced coaching staff. Perhaps that's what happened in the next couple of years too (young and inexperienced coaching staff) but they have obviously figured it out and are doing a terrific job for ORU now. Again, I just think it's weak that so many people around ORU have blamed Barry Hinson for the dip in ORU basketball following his departure for Springfield. I use to agree with some of what Rob has been saying, but I've learned a whole lot about basketball in the last few years. I don't think the 99-00 team was as talented as we all think. We looked to a guy that just redshirted the previous season because he had part of his finger removed. Any expectations were unfair although he did have a good season. Eric Perry was not a true point guard... didn't we lose Phillip Owens? Eric was a two guard trapped in a point guards body. Reggie Tate had a solid junior year, but fell into the Tyrone Tiggs category his senior year. We all know the unfortunate story of DT and Leon. Does anyone really remember this team? It was a total mess with players with some character issues. Dave Sumrall was the bright spot for us that season. I seriously use to think that we underachieved that season, but I have since realized that team wasn't that talented. I don't think the current staff would recruit any of those players today. ORU basketball has come a long way under Coach Sutton. Obviously I've had the benefit of being able to build relationships with former players, and we've had many conversations about the current coaching staff. Obviously everyone has their weaknesses, but Coach Sutton has done a tremendous job with hiring the proper staff to make him a solid coach. The entire staff has developed over a period of time to make a very solid staff. Sutton does a great job of treating people the right way. He takes care of people, and in return he has a very loyal following. I like how Coach Sutton publicly makes long term plans... such as tonight. He plans on getting OSU on the schedule for a possible ESPN game in a couple years. He has solidified the program with long term goals. He isn't just trying to win today or tomorrow. He is doing the right things at ORU. He wants the players wearing the best gear, he wants them in the nicest locker room possible, and he wants to play a tough schedule. He could easily take the easy way out by loading up on wins every year and getting out of town as quickly as possible. It doesn't really matter if he struggled the first couple years. He started to get things right with Barnes, Tiggs, Borges, Spencer-Gardner and Atkinson. Those players allowed us to get players like Bluitt, Tutt, Owens, Green, etc. Your best or worst recruiting tool is your current players. The current players know that Coach Sutton is looking out for them. He makes sure the players have a great experience while being a part of ORU basketball. He also cares about the traditions and principles of ORU. There is not a better person in college basketball right now for ORU. I like Coach Hinson and I wish him the best of luck whatever he does in college basketball. He simply took what was perceived as a better job as quickly as possible. He didn't buy into ORU, and I have the recruiting stories to prove it. Self didn't buy into it either. Hinson and Self didn't sell ORU like the current staff sells it. I'm leaving it at that right now. I just had to throw some balance into it from my side of the fence. Outside of Hinson, and just looking at Missouri State. Getting paid more equals more pressure. If you don't want the pressure, don't take the money. That is what makes ORU a GREAT job. The ORU coach can keep cashing good checks with how much pressure? What would it take to get fired here? If you are a 20 game winner... you're king. I just don't understand why anyone would leave this place in a hurry. You have it made when you win some games here. I would imagine Missouri State pays under half a million. I would think it would take a job that pays over half a million to get Sutton away from here. He isn't going to leave for a Missouri Valley school. It will have to be a BCS league type school. That's when I think it's worth taking the heat when you are cashing those kinds of checks. Barry wouldn't have a bad life if he would have camped out at ORU for a while. He'll be just fine though, and continue to have a solid coaching career. ORU has been very fortunate to have high quality coaches since returning to D1. Anyways, what kind of pressure does a head coach face at the D1 level? I heard a coach say the other day that he didn't know anything about pressure. He said, "Pressure is having a wife and three kids at home, and you just got laid off from your $30k a year job. Now that's pressure." When a head coach gets canned... feel sorry for the Director of Basketball Operations or third assistant who might never get a D1 job again. He's the one that is between a rock and a hard place. Those are the guys that have to scramble come Final Four time. I couldn't break in anywhere really. Evan Black had to take a year off from coaching, and got a chance with a junior college. Now he is a D1 assistant coach. I had a few phone interviews with junior colleges, and ended up in North Carolina for high school bball. I also received some nice hand written letters from some D1 coaches. It's a tough profession that a lot of people want to break into. Coaching jobs are hard to get unless you want to work for free. So there should be a lot of pressure because those jobs are high in demand. If you don't get it done... someone else will get it done. Trust me, I don't have much sympathy for head coaches. My sympathy goes out to the guys a little bit lower down the totem poll. Anyways... I'm done with this thread. It's time to get back to hyping the Oakland game on THURSDAY night! 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Old Titan Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 The greatest thing that Scott Sutton has achieved at ORU is creating a since of stability at an institution that has rarely known it. It's not just his wins and losses from any particular year - it's his consistency over that time. The whole of the Sutton legacy at ORU is equal to more than the sum of his wins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Marshall Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 The greatest thing that Scott Sutton has achieved at ORU is creating a since of stability at an institution that has rarely known it. It's not just his wins and losses from any particular year - it's his consistency over that time. The whole of the Sutton legacy at ORU is equal to more than the sum of his wins... O.T., I think you make a good point here, but I really believe that started with Mike Carter. When you think about it, Mike's truly done a amazing job of bringing stability to ORU athletics. The tier II programs have pretty much always remained stable (coaches staying put) with the exception of tennis after Coach Duke retired. Volleyball has been a little tumultuous but men's and women's basketball have been solid for eight and ten years respectively. That's really quite remarkable at the D-I level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Marshall Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I use to agree with some of what Rob has been saying, but I've learned a whole lot about basketball in the last few years. I don't think the 99-00 team was as talented as we all think. We looked to a guy that just redshirted the previous season because he had part of his finger removed. Any expectations were unfair although he did have a good season. I seriously use to think that we underachieved that season, but I have since realized that team wasn't that talented. I don't think the current staff would recruit any of those players today. Anyways... I'm done with this thread. It's time to get back to hyping the Oakland game on THURSDAY night! MM, yes, yes it is ... it's "Hey, Kool-Aid" I hear ringing from your post! Eric Perry was a very talented college basketball player (voted 1st team all-conference by the Mid Con coaches in 99-00) and if you really believe the ORU coaches wouldn't recruit EP again today, you're crazy. For not really being a true point guard, he managed to make the top ten list at ORU for steals and assists, and averaged more than five assists and two steals per game as a senior in 99-00. He shot 44% from 3pt FG, oh and he and that "handicapped" guy Binam combined to make 166 3's in 99-00. Perry averaged 14 points per game (on exactly ten shots per game) for that team along with Derrick Taylor to lead the way. Binam averaged 13+ pts, again not bad for a guy who returned from a tragic finger injury. Additionally, the 99-00 team featured three (3) 1000+ point career scorers on the roster as well (Taylor, Perry and Josh Atkinson), and they were good enough to beat a NCAA Elite Eight team too; so to call them "not really that talented" screams, "HEY KOOL-AID"! Now, I'll join you in the "I'm done with this thread" board room and we can debate this more there if you'd like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoState417 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I would imagine Missouri State pays under half a million. I would think it would take a job that pays over half a million to get Sutton away from here. Hinson makes like $130,000. What does Scott make? I cant imagine it being much less if at all. While I dont think he is the guy to bring this program to the next level anymore, he is still way to underpaid. He is last or second to last in the Valley in pay. If it does come down to having to get a new coach we will have to raise the pay alot. We offered Buzz Peterson something around 230,000-270,000 and he quit after one day and then we hired Barry. So he left ORU knowing we were giving him alot less money then a guy we just hired a few weeks before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Minyard Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Rob, You can't honestly think Josh was worth a whole lot that first year for Scott? Josh ended up being a really good player for us, but he didn't mean much to the 99-00 team. I'm not dogging Nate because of his accident, but nobody knew how he was going to respond. Just curious because I don't want to go look in a media guide, but who did Barry Hinson recruit in his two years as the boss? Nobody thought Chad Wilkerson was a Mid-Con Player of the Year type either entering the 99-00 season. Wasn't DT the preseason pick? Barry was very fortunate that a player like Slim stepped up his senior year. We may have gone to the NCAA tournament and won a game had he not fouled out in the championship. (His last two fouls were jokes too!) I think we should just debate this over a lunch sometime next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Minyard Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Hinson makes like $130,000. Are you serious? Do you know that for a fact? I don't think that is accurate at all. If that number was true (which I'm pretty sure it isn't), I can't believe he left ORU for that job. That figure would have to be at least doubled to leave. ORU is about as pressure free as it comes. Except for the UMKC incident about five years ago. I'm pretty sure Hinson has it a lot better up their in Springfield. MSU needs to back off their coach if they are only going to pay $130k. I think Wichita State, Creighton and Northern Iowa are all paying over $500k now. I know for fact that Wichita State just extended Turgeon's deal and is paying him about $600k. My numbers aren't an exact science, but are ball park figures. I'm assuming about Creighton and Northern Iowa. How do you expect to compete if you aren't willing to put up the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoState417 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Barry Hinson '07 salary is 128,520, and when he took the job it was even less because he has been given a few increases. Turgeon is making around 750,000. I think but not sure. Trust me we all think he is under paid for his postion. The womens coach here makes the exact same salary. If Barry makes the NCAA's this year, we really need to given him a big raise. If not we have to and we will offer or new coach alot higher salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Marshall Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Rob, You can't honestly think Josh was worth a whole lot that first year for Scott? Josh ended up being a really good player for us, but he didn't mean much to the 99-00 team. I'm not dogging Nate because of his accident, but nobody knew how he was going to respond. Just curious because I don't want to go look in a media guide, but who did Barry Hinson recruit in his two years as the boss? Nobody thought Chad Wilkerson was a Mid-Con Player of the Year type either entering the 99-00 season. Wasn't DT the preseason pick? Barry was very fortunate that a player like Slim stepped up his senior year. We may have gone to the NCAA tournament and won a game had he not fouled out in the championship. (His last two fouls were jokes too!) I think we should just debate this over a lunch sometime next week. Agreed about Josh; my point was that he was a talented and capable player who happened to be on that roster, given he was a freshman. On Hinson's watch, ORU signed Tate, Irving, and Kyan Brown from JUCOs and four (4) high school kids; arguably the two highest rated HS prospects sadly left campus before ever playing a game - Brandon Rabel, 6'9 from Wyandotte, OK and Terrell Hill, 6'7 from Carnegie, OK - both were all-state players; Hill went to a JUCO and ended up playing for Bob Hoffman at UTPA; Micah Ratzlaff (6'5 guard from KS) and Josh Atkinson (6'3 guard from Tulsa) were the other two (2). I may have missed someone, but I believe those are the kids that Hinson, Scott Sutton, and Tommy Deffebaugh signed. Of course, as an ORU assistant Barry recruited and signed Crenshaw, Gill, Walls, Moses, Perry, Owens, and Wilkerson among others. Lunch next week sounds good, if we can coordinate calendars. Heck, Canada can even join us if he wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Marshall Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Barry Hinson '07 salary is 128,520, and when he took the job it was even less because he has been given a few increases. Turgeon is making around 750,000. I think but not sure. Trust me we all think he is under paid for his postion. The womens coach here makes the exact same salary. If Barry makes the NCAA's this year, we really need to given him a big raise. If not we have to and we will offer or new coach alot higher salary. Keep in mind "salary" is NOT "total compensation" ... camps, endorsements/public speaking, radio/television shows, etc ... salaries are listed for all coaches at all state institutions much lower than annual gross earnings (see Bob Stoops or Bill Self). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoState417 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Barry Hinson Contract Three (3) year contract in effect July 1, 2006 ? June 30, 2009. Salary - $128,520. Rental of Hammons Student Center for summer basketball camp. Worker?s Compensation Insurance (regular University benefit). Retirement Fund (regular University benefit). Achievement payment for winning or finishing as co-champions of the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) - $10,000. Achievement payment for winning the MVC post-season conference tournament - $8,000. $7,500 achievement payment for each game appearance of the Bears in the NCAA tournament as well as one of the following: $10,000 if the team appears in the Sweet 16; $17,500 for an appearance in the Elite Eight; $35,000 if the team advances to the Final Four; $50,000 if the team reaches the championship game; or $100,000 if the team wins the national championship game. $2,500 achievement payment for each game appearance in the pre-and/or post season NIT tournament(s) as well as one of the following: $10,000 if the team reaches the NIT Final Four; $15,000 if the team plays in the championship game; or $20,000 if the team wins the NIT championship game. Television shows guarantee - $30,000. Radio shows guarantee - $30,000. Highland Springs Country Club social membership, Millwood Country Club golf and social membership and The Tower Club membership. Use of one (1) automobile and insurance. Cancellation Clause ? University agrees to pay Coach two (2) years of base salary if terminated without cause at the end of the first year of the contract or the number of months left on the contract if terminated within 24 months of the contract?s ending date. Coach agrees to pay the University 12 months of salary if Coach cancels the contract with two years left on the contract or three (3) months of salary if cancelled within 12 months of the ending date of the contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oruvoice Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I use to agree with some of what Rob has been saying, but I've learned a whole lot about basketball in the last few years. I don't think the 99-00 team was as talented as we all think. We looked to a guy that just redshirted the previous season because he had part of his finger removed. Any expectations were unfair although he did have a good season. Eric Perry was not a true point guard... didn't we lose Phillip Owens? Eric was a two guard trapped in a point guards body. Reggie Tate had a solid junior year, but fell into the Tyrone Tiggs category his senior year. We all know the unfortunate story of DT and Leon. Does anyone really remember this team? It was a total mess with players with some character issues. Dave Sumrall was the bright spot for us that season. I seriously use to think that we underachieved that season, but I have since realized that team wasn't that talented. I don't think the current staff would recruit any of those players today. ORU basketball has come a long way under Coach Sutton. Obviously I've had the benefit of being able to build relationships with former players, and we've had many conversations about the current coaching staff. Obviously everyone has their weaknesses, but Coach Sutton has done a tremendous job with hiring the proper staff to make him a solid coach. The entire staff has developed over a period of time to make a very solid staff. Sutton does a great job of treating people the right way. He takes care of people, and in return he has a very loyal following. I like how Coach Sutton publicly makes long term plans... such as tonight. He plans on getting OSU on the schedule for a possible ESPN game in a couple years. He has solidified the program with long term goals. He isn't just trying to win today or tomorrow. He is doing the right things at ORU. He wants the players wearing the best gear, he wants them in the nicest locker room possible, and he wants to play a tough schedule. He could easily take the easy way out by loading up on wins every year and getting out of town as quickly as possible. It doesn't really matter if he struggled the first couple years. He started to get things right with Barnes, Tiggs, Borges, Spencer-Gardner and Atkinson. Those players allowed us to get players like Bluitt, Tutt, Owens, Green, etc. Your best or worst recruiting tool is your current players. The current players know that Coach Sutton is looking out for them. He makes sure the players have a great experience while being a part of ORU basketball. He also cares about the traditions and principles of ORU. There is not a better person in college basketball right now for ORU. I like Coach Hinson and I wish him the best of luck whatever he does in college basketball. He simply took what was perceived as a better job as quickly as possible. He didn't buy into ORU, and I have the recruiting stories to prove it. Self didn't buy into it either. Hinson and Self didn't sell ORU like the current staff sells it. I'm leaving it at that right now. I just had to throw some balance into it from my side of the fence. Outside of Hinson, and just looking at Missouri State. Getting paid more equals more pressure. If you don't want the pressure, don't take the money. That is what makes ORU a GREAT job. The ORU coach can keep cashing good checks with how much pressure? What would it take to get fired here? If you are a 20 game winner... you're king. I just don't understand why anyone would leave this place in a hurry. You have it made when you win some games here. I would imagine Missouri State pays under half a million. I would think it would take a job that pays over half a million to get Sutton away from here. He isn't going to leave for a Missouri Valley school. It will have to be a BCS league type school. That's when I think it's worth taking the heat when you are cashing those kinds of checks. Barry wouldn't have a bad life if he would have camped out at ORU for a while. He'll be just fine though, and continue to have a solid coaching career. ORU has been very fortunate to have high quality coaches since returning to D1. Anyways, what kind of pressure does a head coach face at the D1 level? I heard a coach say the other day that he didn't know anything about pressure. He said, "Pressure is having a wife and three kids at home, and you just got laid off from your $30k a year job. Now that's pressure." When a head coach gets canned... feel sorry for the Director of Basketball Operations or third assistant who might never get a D1 job again. He's the one that is between a rock and a hard place. Those are the guys that have to scramble come Final Four time. I couldn't break in anywhere really. Evan Black had to take a year off from coaching, and got a chance with a junior college. Now he is a D1 assistant coach. I had a few phone interviews with junior colleges, and ended up in North Carolina for high school bball. I also received some nice hand written letters from some D1 coaches. It's a tough profession that a lot of people want to break into. Coaching jobs are hard to get unless you want to work for free. So there should be a lot of pressure because those jobs are high in demand. If you don't get it done... someone else will get it done. Trust me, I don't have much sympathy for head coaches. My sympathy goes out to the guys a little bit lower down the totem poll. Anyways... I'm done with this thread. It's time to get back to hyping the Oakland game on THURSDAY night! If there were a trophy for most intelligent, thoughtful post of the year...it would be sitting on your mantle. GREAT POST!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djenkins13 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Great topic guys; enjoyed reading everyone's post. Hinson is making around $300,000 to $350,000 a year.Pretty much double what ORU pays. Tough job up there and a lot of expectations. Met him a couple of times and was always a really nice guy. Got to get to the dance this year to be able to either get better job or more $$. Hope for the best for him wherever he goes. Wichita St around $750,000, Creighton around $800,000 and Northern Iowa around $500,000. Very good $$ and a great conference. I would think Scott would take the Creighton job in about 30 seconds if offered. Great job with a huge pay increase! Much better job than Colorado or those type that will be open at the end of the year. He will not leave for just any job. There were some real knuckleheads on the team that first year after Barry left,not his fault just the way it was. The talent is better now as well as the type of guys on the team. It helps that the staff has been together for so long. Everyone know their roles and strengths. Does Scott leave if they go to the tourney again? What type of job would he leave for and who replaces him? Lot of questions out there. Big game on Thursday for the guys, wish them the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Titan Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 O.T., I think you make a good point here, but I really believe that started with Mike Carter. When you think about it, Mike's truly done a amazing job of bringing stability to ORU athletics. The tier II programs have pretty much always remained stable (coaches staying put) with the exception of tennis after Coach Duke retired. Volleyball has been a little tumultuous but men's and women's basketball have been solid for eight and ten years respectively. That's really quite remarkable at the D-I level. ...I actually had Mike Carter AND Richard Roberts listed along with Scott as ALL bringing a sense of stability to ORU when it needed it most a decade or so ago, but I took their names out since the focus of this thread was on coaches. But you're right - the three of them have made ORU at least APPEAR to be a solid place to attend school, send your kids to, or work for. I frankly wondered at times over the past three decades whether that would ever be possible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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