ORU vs. Duke

[ORU40]

2 hours ago, Texasgrip said:

Duke has some work to do. Four freshman starting in the Big Dance? They just weren't ready to face a real team like Tennessee. Maybe they can play a tougher OOC schedule to prepare for the real games next year. Maybe even find some ballers in the portal. How embarrassing.

I'm not sure what your point is here @Texasgrip I get that you are being sarcastic to anyone that says anything other than ORU is great needs to shut up! But are you arguing that Duke isn't good because they start more McDonalds All-Americans this year than we've had in our program's history? And they will have more players drafted in the first round with those freshmen THIS YEAR than we've ever had drafted in the first round in our program's history (our total is 1, Duke will at least triple that this year... at least).

Is your point that if we just shot against Duke like we did against Omaha we would have won, then you just don't understand basketball, defense affects how you shoot. Is your point that Duke losing in one of the best games I've seen this year (I've actually watched other games than just ORU) to an outstanding Tennesse team means they stink? Playing top teams like Duke is not the same as playing Ozark Christian or the Summit league schedule. Look we won our conference and went to the NCAA-it was a great season, in mid-major basketball. We are not a top 25 national team at this point. In my opinion playing a tougher OOC would help us prepare for the good teams. We will get to see that defensive intensity, rebounding physicality and improve and not be shell shocked when we do, like we obviously were against Duke.

Sorry, but yes if we would have made our shots and rebounded better and not turned the ball over and not been completely out leagued (literally and figuratively Summit v ACC) we would have won. And maybe I would have gotten a pony for Christmas.

We all wanted ORU to play better against Duke, but we didn't! let's be gracious and more importantly honest with ourselves!  

 

 

 

[Dr. Cornelius]

If ORU was ill prepared for Duke playing in the Summit and a subpar non-conference then what was Duke’s excuse for folding the second there was any physicality from Tennessee?

They play in the ACC so they should have been prepared. Instead they got pushed around all over the floor.

[ORU40]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Cornelius said:

If ORU was ill prepared for Duke playing in the Summit and a subpar non-conference then what was Duke’s excuse for folding the second there was any physicality from Tennessee?

They play in the ACC so they should have been prepared. Instead they got pushed around all over the floor.

Duke completely matched Tennesse for the most part, it was a hard fought, very competitive and extremely physical game. Tennessee is really, really good, sweet 16 good and fell to a 4 seed when their point guard was hurt and plays in the SEC. You are completely comparing apples to oranges (are you saying the Summit league is the same as the SEC or ACC?). 

I get it, we are all ORU fans but...What are you saying Tennesse or Duke would be a middle of the pack Summit team??? Really???

[ORU40]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Cornelius said:

If ORU was ill prepared for Duke playing in the Summit and a subpar non-conference then what was Duke’s excuse for folding the second there was any physicality from Tennessee?

They play in the ACC so they should have been prepared. Instead they got pushed around all over the floor.

Duke sent us home wearing our asses as hats!!!  Now trying to say they aren't a good team is just bad form! They are good, but not the best team of all time because they beat us!! 

 

[Dr. Cornelius]

Just now, ORU40 said:

Duke sent us home wearing our asses as hats!!!  Now trying to say they aren't a good team is just bad form! They are good, but not the best team of all time because they beat us!! 

 

Nobody is saying that. Maybe re-read if you need to.

You are trying to have it both ways. Saying ORU is awful and unprepared when they lose but Duke is great when they couldn’t answer the bell.

 

[ORU40]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Cornelius said:

Nobody is saying that. Maybe re-read if you need to.

You are trying to have it both ways. Saying ORU is awful and unprepared when they lose but Duke is great when they couldn’t answer the bell.

 

Not at all, I'm not saying we are awful, I'm saying we had a great mid-major season. But the people saying we only lost because Duke was going to win it all were way off base, Duke is good but not nearly the best team in the country, but a good not great P5 team blows us away!!

If what you fans want is to just win games, no matter against who and are satisfied to win the Summit, this is the right course. Keep playing this schedule. But if you want to grow into a topflight mid major like St Mary's or Gonzaga as is so often referenced on this fan board, you have to start playing more good teams and eventually beating them!!

 

[Keenan Henderson]

ORU has won two NCAA tournament games in 49 years.  It is very challenging to do it at the mid major level, no matter who the coaches or players are.  That is why it is so exciting when it happens.  It seems to be a once in a lifetime achievement.  Hopefully I am wrong and ORU does it again soon but those are high expectations to win at this level in the future.

Before the Eagles surprised Florida and Ohio State.  If ORU does return to the Big Dance, then we can always expect other teams to remember their Sweet 16 run and give them their best shot.  We all want to be the next Zags and Mark Few (Coach Mills) but how many Gongoza's are there?  One.  It is a very difficult prospect.

[Keenan Henderson]

My question about the Duke game is: how do you beat them when they are bigger, stronger, and more athletic at every position?  Duke was beatable but not if you do not have studs to match up with them.   The Eagles are basically still playing small ball, while the Vols had the players to match up with the Devils.  

[ORU40]

2 hours ago, Dr. Cornelius said:

Nobody is saying that. Maybe re-read if you need to.

You are trying to have it both ways. Saying ORU is awful and unprepared when they lose but Duke is great when they couldn’t answer the bell.

 

And let's be honest, after our humiliating loss to Duke I wasn't on here saying Duke was great and we got paired with them because the tourney was trying to silence coach Mills for criticizing the selection process or Duke was amazing and would win it all. But some did!! And I wasn't saying Duke stunk when they lost to an outstanding Tennessee team. 

I'm simply offering my objective opinion based on my knowledge and experience in basketball, if you all want to simply say we're great and the Summit is great, and we play a fantastic OOC schedule... sorry but I'm not going to blindly agree!!

[SonofaLegend]

2 hours ago, ORU40 said:

Not at all, I'm not saying we are awful, I'm saying we had a great mid-major season. But the people saying we only lost because Duke was going to win it all were way off base, Duke is good but not nearly the best team in the country, but a good not great P5 team blows us away!!

If what you fans want is to just win games, no matter against who and are satisfied to win the Summit, this is the right course. Keep playing this schedule. But if you want to grow into a topflight mid major like St Mary's or Gonzaga as is so often referenced on this fan board, you have to start playing more good teams and eventually beating them!!

 

See, I see it differently. I think for the most part I agree with what you're saying, the pessimism about our team/preparation/performance isn't entirely reasonable. I'd blame expectations before blaming the team. 

I also find it tough to say a tougher schedule, or lack there of, determines success in this tournament. If that were the case, you'd think Purdue would have man handled Farleigh-Dickson.

With Houston being our only experience against a team like Duke/Tennessee, I don't think we had enough of a sample size to understand that we would be exposed by skilled BIGS and very athletic defense. 
 

I don't think this tournament crowns the best team by any stretch, and with few exceptions, virtually every team that makes it is capable of knocking off their opponent. There are so many intangibles in this game, the ebbs and flows, the unforeseen cold shooting nights, and then add in 15,000 fans, and just about anything can happen. 
 

Certain teams are built to make it the whole way, but it's more about who is able to stave off an off night, and put together a good 6 game run.  
 

I agree with most of what you said ORU40, just not as willing to pin the loss on anything our team did, scheduling or otherwise. We had a great season like you said, and I hope we get another shot to do damage in the NCAA next year. 

 

 

[Keenan Henderson]

I cannot remember ORU trailing much at all since the New Mexico loss.  Do you think the fact that Duke led from the beginning shocked them and the Eagles did not know how to respond to it, because it had been so long since that happened? 

Duke gave ORU a taste of their own medicine: blocking shots at will, building a big lead, and basically dominiating the whole game.  That is kind of what the Eagles did to most of the Summit League.

[SonofaLegend]

I think our scheduling was excellent, and our record put us a spot outside the top 25 a week ago, and a legit case for an at large bid. Loading the schedule with road games against P5 schools (more likely to have homer refs) doesn't sound like it has the potential benefit, that some on here perceive it to have. If anything, we should look at not winning at least one quad one game when we had the chance. Gotta win one of them if we do have a schedule like that.

[SonofaLegend]

40 minutes ago, ORU40 said:

And let's be honest, after our humiliating loss to Duke I wasn't on here saying Duke was great and we got paired with them because the tourney was trying to silence coach Mills for criticizing the selection process or Duke was amazing and would win it all. But some did!! And I wasn't saying Duke stunk when they lost to an outstanding Tennessee team. 

I'm simply offering my objective opinion based on my knowledge and experience in basketball, if you all want to simply say we're great and the Summit is great, and we play a fantastic OOC schedule... sorry but I'm not going to blindly agree!!

Lol, the committee didn't do us any favors. You make good points though, and probably have perspective I don't. I think as a whole, we are moving in the right direction judging by the disappointment at losing to Duke in the NCAA tournament. Hindsight is 20/20, and I don't recall people predicting before the game, that we couldn't hang with Duke due to early season scheduling.  

[Keenan Henderson]

The scheduling is an interesting topic.  For example: the 05-06 team was really good (Tutt, Green, and Owens group) and they played a tough non conference but that cost them the 16 seed.  They ran into 1 seed Memphis and gave them a tough night for one half but then lost by double digits in the second half.  The 06 team was battle tested but the low seed cost them in the end.  So you can look at both ways: play a tough schedule and mostly likely get a low seed against a top seed. Or play a softer schedule and hope to be matched up with a beatable opponent but then you may not be battle tested.  They both have their pros and cons.

[ORU82]

I was blessed to spend Friday in a luxury box inside Nationwide Arena in Columbus watching the First Round games being played there.  It was interesting to say the least.

One of those games involved Purdue and FDU.  Prior to the start of that game it was obvious that Purdue had brought a ton of people and little FDU had maybe a hundred if lucky.  Of course Purdue brought about 50 members of their band, the entire dance team, cheerleaders as well as the mascot.  FDU also brought a pep band of maybe 20 kids, their mascot and the cheerleaders who appeared to have come from the set of "Jersey Shore".  While Purdue tried to impress you with their "we are the Big 10" and played their fight song over and over, FDU's band started playing funk and their cheerleaders started exhibiting moves I assume they learned at the KitKat Club out next to Newark International Airport.  So what am I trying to say?  Purdue really was that arrogant and showed it in everything they did, including the fact that they thought this game was over before the opening tipoff.  After all, they are the elite blue blood program whose starting lineup is 7'4", 7'2", 6'10", 6'7" and 6'5" facing an FDU starting lineup of 6'7", 6'6", 6'4" 6'1" and 5'9" (the smallest team of any D-I program this year).  However, from FDU's band, cheerleaders, fans, team and coaches you would have thought they were playing just another team in the Northeast Conference.  They were not intimidated at all.  Also, by the second half of the game the entire arena other than Purdue fans were standing on their feet cheering for FDU.

As for how FDU played Purdue to deal with an obvious mismatch in talent, size, speed and athleticism, it was a thing of beauty.  They basically punched Purdue in the mouth from the getgo and never let up.  They started the game with a full court press and never quit the entire game.  About ever 2 minutes they would platoon in at least 4 new players to keep fresh legs and they got in your face and never let up.  FDU basically played its entire bench through out the entire game just to keep fresh legs and intense pressure on Purdue.  FDU did an excellent job of disrupting Purdue and slowing the game down.  They would run a weave on offense and with just a few seconds left on the shot clock one of their guards would go for the shot.  I watched FDU's small guards go right at Purdue's big guys including and particularly Purdue's 7'+ guys and once those big guys dropped back to defend the bucket FDU's little guards would stop on a dime, drop back and launch a mid range shot over the top of the big guys who could not stop it and never adjusted accordingly.  If the big guys did not drop back, FDU would have someone cutting to the basket behind the bigs and the guards would bounce pass the ball into them.  At least 3 of FDU's rotation were playing D-II basketball last year and I am not sure that any of the FDU players would ever make the Purdue roster, let alone start.  Finally, FDU did not win either the regular season or tournament crown in the NEC.  That honor went to Merrimack College who is still transitioning from D-II to D-I and therefore could not play in the Big Dance.

So what does this have to do with us?  FDU clearly showed that even if you do not have the size, athleticism, speed or talent a smaller school can still beat a so called blue blood program.  Our team this year did have a nice season but by no means is one of our elite teams and if we ever want to go to the next level at the least we have to be able to beat quad one teams.  Scheduling a tougher OOC lineup helps to get you there.  Did I expect us to win versus Duke?  I thought we had a chance.  Did I expect a beatdown on National TV in Primetime?  No, and I am not going to make excuses by overrating Duke or blaming the NCAA Selection Committee or any other excuse.  We failed at a time when we should have done much better.  My narrative about the FDU/Purdue game is that smaller schools can take out the blue bloods.  I was hoping that even if we did not defeat Duke we would have at least given them a run for their money.  Obviously we did not.

[ORU40]

9 hours ago, SonofaLegend said:

I agree with most of what you said ORU40, just not as willing to pin the loss on anything our team did, scheduling or otherwise. We had a great season like you said, and I hope we get another shot to do damage in the NCAA next year. 

SOAL, I am in no way trying to pin the painful Duke loss on our players in anyway. They played everyone put in front of them and they played hard and were excellent ambassadors for our university!! The players do not make the schedule, that's the coaching staff and athletic dept. I'm not saying we need to play 12 road games against P5 teams, but my point is if we played a couple more good teams and a couple less NAIA teams we could be better prepared at the end of the season, which hopefully will be a lot more NCAA tourney games. 

@ORU82 hits the nail directly on the head! We may not beat a Duke, but if we played a little tougher schedule, we might be better prepared to at least be competitive against the Duke level teams. The players did not fail at all, we failed in helping them be better prepared. I also agree with @Keenan Henderson and his points about the 05-06 team, they got a bad seed, but were competitive against a 1 seed! We can't control where the selection committee puts us, but we can make every effort to control (and help our players not just be overwhelmed and not score in the first 8 minutes of the game) our ability to improve.

We won the conference and made the NCAA tournament and those are absolutely accomplishments to celebrate. But IMHO some additional completion early in the year will help our players be more competitive at the end of the season. To me, being battle tested and maybe taking a couple lumps early is a better strategy than just playing cupcakes and then just being absolutely dismantled at the end of the season.  It's not one or the other, we can applaud our success and still look for ways to improve. 

  

 

[MrsSmith]

Hopefully we can move on from arguing about our OOC schedule soon.  News Flash: It's not a magical formula that if you play a tough OOC schedule you will be great in the tournament.  Some of you act as if that was the most important thing.  Or maybe you just like to argue. I don't.  LET IT GO! 

Let's talk about this wonderful team we had this year.  What great guys they are.  Or anything else...

[dbl78]

I would have to disagree with the comments on the 05-06 team in Dallas.  I was there - for a stretch in the first half, we played almost perfect basketball, and kept  the game close - no different than the way some of the Summit League teams played us this year.  But the second half was a different story - we were not competitive.  We played a little better in Sacramento, but Washington ran us out of the gym again, and Denver, we may have even looked worse than we did Friday night.  

I think it makes sense to play good teams who play a different style than we normally encounter during the regular season, but to play a P5 team because they are a P5 team, other than we will cash a good check, does not help the program.  I think this would apply at all levels - there are P5 teams that play a certain style in league play, and are exposed in the tournament by playing a team unlike anything they have seen. (And yes, I am suggesting that Coach Mills get on the phone with Matt Painter and schedule a game - it would be beneficial to both programs.)