Liberty-ORU

[Otis 83]

9 minutes ago, TrueBlue82 said:

I was having a similar conversation with my son the other day, and totally agree that Connor's blocks are being under-reported IMHO.  At many schools, an athletic department rep will review the game on film afterwards and update/correct the stats for such errors.  I hope ORU is doing the same.

Maybe the athletic department needs to bring back the cracker jack stat crew of Old Titan and TrueBlue82 to address this situation.

[Old Titan]

11 minutes ago, Otis 83 said:

Maybe the athletic department needs to bring back the cracker jack stat crew of Old Titan and TrueBlue82 to address this situation.

Truth be told, I was screaming at the scoreboard last night over every one they missed:  "THAT WAS A BLOCK! THAT WAS A BLOCK!!"

Happy to sit alongside whoever is (not) keeping tally, just to let him/her know when they've missed one. 

Seriously, the poor guy could be leading the nation in that category if they would just properly chronicle what he rightfully deserves.

[TrueBlue82]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:54 PM, Old Titan said:

Truth be told, I was screaming at the scoreboard last night over every one they missed:  "THAT WAS A BLOCK! THAT WAS A BLOCK!!"

Happy to sit alongside whoever is (not) keeping tally, just to let him/her know when they've missed one. 

Seriously, the poor guy could be leading the nation in that category if they would just properly chronicle what he rightfully deserves.

Okay, I took the bait, because I am a stat geek at heart.  I rewatched the Liberty game, and compared it to the play-by-play of the game - and found it very interesting.

Here are some highlights, and the time clock, if any other geeks want to play along.

1st half

17:19 - McBride drives down the right side of the lane, and throws up a running shot which lands out of bounds, with the ball awarded back to ORU, last touched by Liberty.  This is a judgment call (as most are).  Did McBride lose control of the ball before he really attempted a shot, and it happened to touch a Liberty player before going out of bounds?  Or, was it a shot attempt that was deflected out of bounds?  On the play-by-play, NOTHING happened, so it was treated as a loose ball that would've been a turnover, except that it touched a Liberty player.  To me, he was attempting a shot, and the fact that the ball was awarded to ORU would confirm that there was a deflection (shot attempt, blocked shot, ORU team rebound), but I can understand the other approach.  It's probably a 50/50 call, and I wouldn't even mention this one, but it ties in to a consistent theme for the remainder of the game.

4:52 - A Liberty player drives into the paint, and as he is rising for the shot, Vanover slaps the ball away out-of-bounds (Adam describes it as a block on the broadcast).  Again, on the play-by-play. nothing is recorded, since Liberty retains possession.  My opinion: player is clearly in the act of shooting and Vanover should be awarded a blocked shot.

2nd half

19:08 - Connor records his first official blocked shot of the game.

14:05 - Darius McGhee deflects Kareem's shot (again, Adam describes it as a block), but no block is recorded.  Shot by Kareem, rebound by Liberty's Robinson.

13:41 - McGhee drives the paint and begins the shooting motion, when Vanover strips the ball and it falls into Max's hands.  Play-by-play records it as a McGhee turnover and a Abmas steal. Really???

6:16 - McGhee into the paint again (doesn't he ever learn???) clearly with the intent to score, and as the ball comes up, both Connor and Kareem are there to deflect the ball and Kareem grabs it.  Called a block by Adam on the broadcast.  This is another 50/50 call.  Was it a block or a steal, and was it Connor or Kareem?  Play-by-play has a McGhee turnover and a Thompson steal.  I'm okay with this, but it still shows a propensity to minimize the number of blocked shots called.

4:46 - Liberty's Cleveland puts up a shot that is clearly deflected by Vanover off of the backboard, so that the ball bounces off the board so hard that it clears the basket.  There's no way Cleveland shoots the ball so poorly that it glances at that angle without any deflection.  Adam calls the deflection on the broadcast.  Play-by play has Cleveland shot attempt and Mwamba rebound, but no blocked shot. 

4:23 - This doesn't impact blocked shots, but is still an error IMHO.  McBride misses a layup, Vanover tips the ball, and it falls to McBride, who shoots and misses again, and Kareem comes flying in to "clean up" (as Adam describes it) with a rebound and return.  Play-by-play has McBride missed shot, Thompson rebound, and Thompson made shot (McBride should've had another offensive rebound and an additional missed shot).  This is pretty basic...

3:03 - Vanover records his second official block of the game!

0:52 - Vanover records his third block!

To be fair, I had the advantage of watching a replay - and could view it several times if necessary - and didn't have to quickly be looking ahead to capture the next action.  Recording this in real time is a challenge.  And, there were several judgment calls that could've gone either way.  That said, IMHO Connor should've had at least six (or seven) blocked shots instead of three.

It appears that the stat keeper is consistent in treating a ball that is deflected out of a player's hand as a steal, rather than a blocked shot, even when the player is in the act of shooting.  From my training (and confirmed by a basketball statistics reference guide) "the act of shooting begins with the shooting motion and ends when the ball has left the shooter’s hand".  But, I suppose that "the beginning of the shooting motion" is still a judgment call.  Unfortunately, for Connor, this perspective will lead to more steals recorded and will reduce his number of blocked shots.

If anyone goes back to review these plays, I'd be interested in your comments.

P.S. - I must admit that it was much more fun to watch the game already knowing the outcome, so my gut wasn't churning at each shot attempt. And, it was a complete JOY to watch Max in action - he is an incredible player and an elite shooter, and to have a player of that caliber (and character) at ORU is pretty amazing.  Enjoy it while we can! 

[Old Titan]

2 hours ago, TrueBlue82 said:

Okay, I took the bait, because I am a stat geek at heart.  I rewatched the Liberty game, and compared it to the play-by-play of the game - and found it very interesting.

Here are some highlights, and the time clock, if any other geeks want to play along.

1st half

17:19 - McBride drives down the right side of the lane, and throws up a running shot which lands out of bounds, with the ball awarded back to ORU, last touched by Liberty.  This is a judgment call (as most are).  Did McBride lose control of the ball before he really attempted a shot, and it happened to touch a Liberty player before going out of bounds?  Or, was it a shot attempt that was deflected out of bounds?  On the play-by-play, NOTHING happened, so it was treated as a loose ball that would've been a turnover, except that it touched a Liberty player.  To me, he was attempting a shot, and the fact that the ball was awarded to ORU would confirm that there was a deflection (shot attempt, blocked shot, ORU team rebound), but I can understand the other approach.  It's probably a 50/50 call, and I wouldn't even mention this one, but it ties in to a consistent theme for the remainder of the game.

4:52 - A Liberty player drives into the paint, and as he is rising for the shot, Vanover slaps the ball away out-of-bounds (Adam describes it as a block on the broadcast).  Again, on the play-by-play. nothing is recorded, since Liberty retains possession.  My opinion: player is clearly in the act of shooting and Vanover should be awarded a blocked shot.

2nd half

19:08 - Connor records his first official blocked shot of the game.

14:05 - Darius McGhee deflects Kareem's shot (again, Adam describes it as a block), but no block is recorded.  Shot by Kareem, rebound by Liberty's Robinson.

13:41 - McGhee drives the paint and begins the shooting motion, when Vanover strips the ball and it falls into Max's hands.  Play-by-play records it as a McGhee turnover and a Abmas steal. Really???

6:16 - McGhee into the paint again (doesn't he ever learn???) clearly with the intent to score, and as the ball comes up, both Connor and Kareem are there to deflect the ball and Kareem grabs it.  Called a block by Adam on the broadcast.  This is another 50/50 call.  Was it a block or a steal, and was it Connor or Kareem?  Play-by-play has a McGhee turnover and a Thompson steal.  I'm okay with this, but it still shows a propensity to minimize the number of blocked shots called.

4:46 - Liberty's Cleveland puts up a shot that is clearly deflected by Vanover off of the backboard, so that the ball bounces off the board so hard that it clears the basket.  There's no way Cleveland shoots the ball so poorly that it glances at that angle without any deflection.  Adam calls the deflection on the broadcast.  Play-by play has Cleveland shot attempt and Mwamba rebound, but no blocked shot. 

4:23 - This doesn't impact blocked shots, but is still an error IMHO.  McBride misses a layup, Vanover tips the ball, and it falls to McBride, who shoots and misses again, and Kareem comes flying in to "clean up" (as Adam describes it) with a rebound and return.  Play-by-play has McBride missed shot, Thompson rebound, and Thompson made shot (McBride should've had another offensive rebound and an additional missed shot).  This is pretty basic...

3:03 - Vanover records his second official block of the game!

0:52 - Vanover records his third block!

To be fair, I had the advantage of watching a replay - and could view it several times if necessary - and didn't have to quickly be looking ahead to capture the next action.  Recording this in real time is a challenge.  And, there were several judgment calls that could've gone either way.  That said, IMHO Connor should've had at least six (or seven) blocked shots instead of three.

It appears that the stat keeper is consistent in treating a ball that is deflected out of a player's hand as a steal, rather than a blocked shot, even when the player is in the act of shooting.  From my training (and confirmed by a basketball statistics reference guide) "the act of shooting begins with the shooting motion and ends when the ball has left the shooter’s hand".  But, I suppose that "the beginning of the shooting motion" is still a judgment call.  Unfortunately, for Connor, this perspective will lead to more steals recorded and will reduce his number of blocked shots.

If anyone goes back to review these plays, I'd be interested in your comments.

P.S. - I must admit that it was much more fun to watch the game already knowing the outcome, so my gut wasn't churning at each shot attempt. And, it was a complete JOY to watch Max in action - he is an incredible player and an elite shooter, and to have a player of that caliber (and character) at ORU is pretty amazing.  Enjoy it while we can! 

JB, this is awesome!  

So awesome that it emboldened me to contact Media Relations at ORU this morning re: this very subject.

Spoke directly with someone who can only be described as being VERY close to the process, and was assured of the following:

• Conner's blocked shot totals are high on the priority list for the stat crew since he is among the national leaders.
• The stat crew totals are compared with the Men's Basketball staff totals.
• Conner's blocked shot totals ARE subject to review post-game.
• And (as TrueBlue82 suspected) most 50/50 balls have been deemed "steal/turnover" as opposed to "shot attempt/block/rebound".

Here's hoping that communicating our concerns that Conner be given the benefit of the doubt on his block shot totals will result in a more accurate tally moving forward, if for no reason than avoiding further phone calls from fan-boy stat geeks like myself.

 

[Otis 83]

3 hours ago, TrueBlue82 said:

Okay, I took the bait, because I am a stat geek at heart.  I rewatched the Liberty game, and compared it to the play-by-play of the game - and found it very interesting.

Here are some highlights, and the time clock, if any other geeks want to play along.

1st half

17:19 - McBride drives down the right side of the lane, and throws up a running shot which lands out of bounds, with the ball awarded back to ORU, last touched by Liberty.  This is a judgment call (as most are).  Did McBride lose control of the ball before he really attempted a shot, and it happened to touch a Liberty player before going out of bounds?  Or, was it a shot attempt that was deflected out of bounds?  On the play-by-play, NOTHING happened, so it was treated as a loose ball that would've been a turnover, except that it touched a Liberty player.  To me, he was attempting a shot, and the fact that the ball was awarded to ORU would confirm that there was a deflection (shot attempt, blocked shot, ORU team rebound), but I can understand the other approach.  It's probably a 50/50 call, and I wouldn't even mention this one, but it ties in to a consistent theme for the remainder of the game.

4:52 - A Liberty player drives into the paint, and as he is rising for the shot, Vanover slaps the ball away out-of-bounds (Adam describes it as a block on the broadcast).  Again, on the play-by-play. nothing is recorded, since Liberty retains possession.  My opinion: player is clearly in the act of shooting and Vanover should be awarded a blocked shot.

2nd half

19:08 - Connor records his first official blocked shot of the game.

14:05 - Darius McGhee deflects Kareem's shot (again, Adam describes it as a block), but no block is recorded.  Shot by Kareem, rebound by Liberty's Robinson.

13:41 - McGhee drives the paint and begins the shooting motion, when Vanover strips the ball and it falls into Max's hands.  Play-by-play records it as a McGhee turnover and a Abmas steal. Really???

6:16 - McGhee into the paint again (doesn't he ever learn???) clearly with the intent to score, and as the ball comes up, both Connor and Kareem are there to deflect the ball and Kareem grabs it.  Called a block by Adam on the broadcast.  This is another 50/50 call.  Was it a block or a steal, and was it Connor or Kareem?  Play-by-play has a McGhee turnover and a Thompson steal.  I'm okay with this, but it still shows a propensity to minimize the number of blocked shots called.

4:46 - Liberty's Cleveland puts up a shot that is clearly deflected by Vanover off of the backboard, so that the ball bounces off the board so hard that it clears the basket.  There's no way Cleveland shoots the ball so poorly that it glances at that angle without any deflection.  Adam calls the deflection on the broadcast.  Play-by play has Cleveland shot attempt and Mwamba rebound, but no blocked shot. 

4:23 - This doesn't impact blocked shots, but is still an error IMHO.  McBride misses a layup, Vanover tips the ball, and it falls to McBride, who shoots and misses again, and Kareem comes flying in to "clean up" (as Adam describes it) with a rebound and return.  Play-by-play has McBride missed shot, Thompson rebound, and Thompson made shot (McBride should've had another offensive rebound and an additional missed shot).  This is pretty basic...

3:03 - Vanover records his second official block of the game!

0:52 - Vanover records his third block!

To be fair, I had the advantage of watching a replay - and could view it several times if necessary - and didn't have to quickly be looking ahead to capture the next action.  Recording this in real time is a challenge.  And, there were several judgment calls that could've gone either way.  That said, IMHO Connor should've had at least six (or seven) blocked shots instead of three.

It appears that the stat keeper is consistent in treating a ball that is deflected out of a player's hand as a steal, rather than a blocked shot, even when the player is in the act of shooting.  From my training (and confirmed by a basketball statistics reference guide) "the act of shooting begins with the shooting motion and ends when the ball has left the shooter’s hand".  But, I suppose that "the beginning of the shooting motion" is still a judgment call.  Unfortunately, for Connor, this perspective will lead to more steals recorded and will reduce his number of blocked shots.

If anyone goes back to review these plays, I'd be interested in your comments.

P.S. - I must admit that it was much more fun to watch the game already knowing the outcome, so my gut wasn't churning at each shot attempt. And, it was a complete JOY to watch Max in action - he is an incredible player and an elite shooter, and to have a player of that caliber (and character) at ORU is pretty amazing.  Enjoy it while we can! 

Great stuff TrueBlue82, this is exactly why I volunteered you to join OT at the scorers table to straighten this mess out!  I appreciate your grace in noting how hard this is to do in real time but I'd also suggest that if Adam, who has a lot to keep with during a broadcast, uses words like "block" and "deflected" that the scorer should be able to discern these as blocks.

If time allows I will go to the time points you call out and offer a view.

If this were the 70s Cowboys I'd assume that Tex Schramm was behind this and instructed the scorers to keep the stats low so he wouldn't have to pay up on the next contract.  

[Keenan Henderson]

Thanks True Blue for the update on the stats from the Liberty game.  That was a blessing.  We are so used to Max being in the top five scoring, #22 this year, that it is nice to have a change of pace with a nations leader in blocks.  Meaning Connor is the one getting some of the headlines, since he is second in the nation in blocked shots.  Plastic Man is a full blocked shot per game behind the leader, another 7'5 guy from Western Kentucky.   Would be interesting to see those two battle it out but we never face WKU, unless in a post season tournament.

[TrueBlue82]

There was a "throwaway" stat in the ORU post-game news and notes that could have easily gone unnoticed:

It was the eighth consecutive game with four or more double-figure scorers.

While this is accurate, it's not the whole story - it's not only eight consecutive games, but ten out of eleven games.  The only game this season in which ORU did not have at least four players with double-digit scoring was at Houston.

Think about that statistic for a minute - and what it tells us about this team.  Depth, balance, consistency, and chemistry all come to mind.  As a comparison, through eleven games last season (the complete non-conference schedule), ORU had recorded FIVE games with at least four players in double figures - half as many as this year.

Obviously, it's not an exact science.  If Max goes off for 50 one night, I'm not going to be disappointed if at least three other players don't score 10 or more (as long as ORU wins). But, it does say that ORU has a variety of players to carry the load on any given night - and that's a REALLY good recipe for success!

[Keenan Henderson]

That is true about Max having a lot of depth/scoring around him.  All 8 of the guys who see minutes have scored in double figures this year, even Trey has done it twice.  Plus, they all can shoot the three too.  That is tough for defenses to prepare for, when ORU has so many weapons on offense.  Who are you willing to leave open or live with scoring?

[ORUTerry]

Great work TrueBlue82! It confirms what I thought was happening. Is there a deadline for when the school can go back and modify the stats based upon video review? Your work would seem to warrant some changes.

[Old Titan]

18 minutes ago, ORUTerry said:

Great work TrueBlue82! It confirms what I thought was happening. Is there a deadline for when the school can go back and modify the stats based upon video review? Your work would seem to warrant some changes.

As for the first five home games, ORU Athletics stands by their numbers.  Nothing can be done re: stats for road games.

[TrueBlue82]

Not to harp on this much more, as it satisfies me that ORU Media and ORU Basketball are comparing notes.  Still, I would encourage anyone interested to take a moment to look at the first "non-block" I noted, at the 4:52 mark of the first half.  The Liberty player is clearly in the act of shooting, as he is jumping through the paint towards the rim.  He's not going to pass, dribble, or hold the ball (which would then lead to recording a steal on a change of possession).  The "problem" is that Vanover acts too early... if the ball had left the player's hand and was in the air, then it would clearly be a blocked shot.  But, for his efficiency in acting early and further avoiding the risk of a foul (or a made field goal), he is rewarded with a "no call".

Just for inquiring minds, I wonder what would have happened if Connor had deflected the ball so that it remained in play. and one of our players had recovered it.  The stat keeper would then not have the option of saying that "nothing happened", but would have had to decide between a shot/block/rebound and a steal/turnover.  Based on how they scored the rest of the game, I'm guessing they would say steal/turnover, which just doesn't make any sense to me.

If anyone sees it differently, I'd be glad to have another perspective.

 

 

[Old Titan]

6 minutes ago, TrueBlue82 said:

Not to harp on this much more, as it satisfies me that ORU Media and ORU Basketball are comparing notes.  Still, I would encourage anyone interested to take a moment to look at the first "non-block" I noted, at the 4:52 mark of the first half.  The Liberty player is clearly in the act of shooting, as he is jumping through the paint towards the rim.  He's not going to pass, dribble, or hold the ball (which would then lead to recording a steal on a change of possession).  The "problem" is that Vanover acts too early... if the ball had left the player's hand and was in the air, then it would clearly be a blocked shot.  But, for his efficiency in acting early and further avoiding the risk of a foul (or a made field goal), he is rewarded with a "no call".

Just for inquiring minds, I wonder what would have happened if Connor had deflected the ball so that it remained in play. and one of our players had recovered it.  The stat keeper would then not have the option of saying that "nothing happened", but would have had to decide between a shot/block/rebound and a steal/turnover.  Based on how they scored the rest of the game, I'm guessing they would say steal/turnover, which just doesn't make any sense to me.

If anyone sees it differently, I'd be glad to have another perspective.

 

 

I agree with you on every single point you've made during this exercise.

Problem is, I'm also convinced that those responsible for Conner's official numbers feel they have everything covered properly.

Not much left to do but complain about it.  Gee, I wonder who we have on here that enjoys doing that??

[ORUTerry]

How old/experienced are these  ‘official’ statisticians? Wonder how the coaches feel about it?

[Old Titan]

1 hour ago, ORUTerry said:

How old/experienced are these  ‘official’ statisticians? Wonder how the coaches feel about it?

TrueBlue82 and I were students when he (then I, after he graduated) headed up the stat crews back in the ‘80’s; it’s pretty standard procedure at most (all?) schools to have students doing the work.

Though I do recall legendary Tulsa PR and ad men Steve Turnbo and Fred Fleischner manning the IBM Selectric typewriters for the play-by-play.  The way they looked at it, it was a great way to have free courtside seats for the hottest ticket in town those days.

 

[Dr. Cornelius]

2 hours ago, TrueBlue82 said:

Still, I would encourage anyone interested to take a moment to look at the first "non-block" I noted, at the 4:52 mark of the first half.

I went back and watched this... definitely a block to me.

[TrueBlue82]

Okay, last post on this topic for the night - I promise.

I did find some information that helps me better understand the ORU stat crew's approach.  In the NCAA Basketball 2022-23 Statisticians' Manual (yes, there is such a thing), it provides this guidance:

Blocked shots are counted as attempts when, in the opinion of the statistician, the ball clearly was in flight before being blocked; the player was in the obvious act of shooting with the shooting hand moving toward the basket; or the player was airborne and moving toward the basket with the intention of a dunk or layup and the ball in position for the shot. If there is doubt about whether the player was in the act of shooting, the interpretation shall be that he or she was not.

So, to the stat crew's credit, the NCAA states that if there is any question on block vs. steal, it's a steal.  With this knowledge, I would now agree with the stat crew's steal decisions on the two Darius McGhee drives into the paint (second half 13:41 and 6:16).

That said, I would still stand by my interpretation of the 4:52 first half and 4:46 second half situations which I would've recorded as clear shot attempts and blocks, giving Connor five blocks instead of three. 

And, back to the comment in my prior post of: "It appears that the stat keeper is consistent in treating a ball that is deflected out of a player's hand as a steal, rather than a blocked shot, even when the player is in the act of shooting.  But, I suppose that "the beginning of the shooting motion" is still a judgment call." 

We now know that the "judgment call" requires 100% confidence that a shot was taken (and blocked) or it is treated as a steal (if possession changes) or nothing (if possession remains with the team on offense).  As such, the stat keeper appears to be adhering quite well to the NCAA guidance, as much as we fans might not like it!  

[OKC Eagle]

The only stat I care about for the rest of the season is wins and losses. Just win baby, anyway you can. Like the Mo State game.