#15 and #24

[theeagleman5]

So it appears that Obi is wearing #15 and Billbury #24 according to the official roster....TheEagleman is stunned.....this shouldn't be.....those numbers are sacred.....somebody has to know the thinking here....or lack of it......

[Guest]

http://webapps.oru.edu/new_php/alumni_and_friends/alumni/media/excellence/summer02/SUMMER02.pdf

 

 Totally inappropriate no matter what the reason is.  

[Old Titan]

From December, 2000, but never more topical:

The news hit Richard Fuqua like a spotlight falling from the Mabee Center ceiling.

His hallowed No. 24 -- the number he wore while thrilling Oral Roberts University crowds too large for the tiny campus gymnasium, the number he wore in the first season of the plush Mabee Center, the number he wore while putting ORU on the college basketball map -- has been taken out of retirement.

So has No. 15, the retired jersey of the late Anthony Roberts. They rank as two of the school's three best offensive players, standing second and third on the ORU career scoring list.

As players, they were most responsible for building the program, and they wore the only two basketball jerseys in the history of the tradition-rich school to be retired.

The Mabee Center has been called "The House that Fuqua Built," but now it must feel like it's coming down around him.

"They told me nobody would wear the jersey again," Fuqua said on Friday, just two days before ORU meets crosstown rival Tulsa for a game on the TU campus. "What's the point in retiring them and saying nobody will wear them again if you turn back around and let somebody do it?"

Fuqua, 50, is athletic director of the Salvation Army Boys and Girls Club in west Tulsa. He says "it's no big deal because those days are so far behind me," but that's just Fuqua -- soft-spoken and more than willing to stay out of the limelight.

The same can't be said of his former coach.

"They don't have any business letting anybody use those jerseys," said Ken Trickey, who coached Fuqua and Roberts from 1969-74 and returned to ORU for a second tenure from 1987-93. "It's wrong, and they need to correct it right now."

But athletic director Mike Carter says no mistake was made and therefore nothing needs to be corrected.

Carter says the jerseys -- which are encased in glass and hung prominently in the Golden Eagles' locker room -- remain retired, but the numbers never were. Carter said there is a difference, but Trickey called it "bull."

Before this season, no one had worn Nos. 24 or 15 since Fuqua (in 1973) and Roberts (in 1977) ended their careers. Now freshman center Matt Gastel has No. 15 and junior college transfer guard Chris Cameron wears No. 24. Both say if it causes hard feelings, they would give up their lifelong favorite numbers immediately.

"He was 10 times the player I'll ever be," Cameron said of Fuqua, "so if he requested that it not be worn again, I'd give it up in a heartbeat."

Since the preseason-opener, Internet message boards have lit up with discussion about the controversy. It just looks weird, some old-time Titan fans say, seeing those numbers worn by someone else.

Although no one is exactly sure how it happened, here's the best guess: Cameron and Gastel put in their number requests to assistant coach Tom Hankins, and Hankins submitted a numerical roster to former sports information director Gary Brown. Neither realized that the numbers requested haven't been worn in a quarter-century, despite hanging just inside the locker room door.

"If a manager or somebody would have caught it," Carter says, "then at that point, we would have looked and said, `OK, what is the policy?' I don't think we would have jumped to the conclusion that these are retired numbers and therefore can't be used. Did it just fly through the cracks this time without anybody catching it? Probably. To be honest, until a fan had asked about it just recently, I never thought about it. It was never addressed to me as a question of disrespect."

"They are going to correct that, they feel, but it's too late now," said athletic trainer Glenn Smith, who has been at the school 29 years. "Everything's printed (rosters, media guides, posters) and they'll let the kids wear them, and I'm sure we'll address that situation when it's more convenient."

Smith said he informed the coaching staff about the retired jerseys in the preseason, but even then, it was too late to make a change in the media guide. Head coach Scott Sutton called it "an oversight" that he thought would be corrected in time.

Carter's stance is mostly mathematical: Since college basketball jerseys can't have a digit greater than 5 (something about the officials using hand signals to indicate fouls to the scorer's table), the maximum number of jerseys available is 36. Carter reasons that if numbers were taken out of circulation, eventually a team would run out. He cited North Carolina's ceremony honoring Vince Carter last week, the Tar Heels' 37th jersey to be so recognized.

But in reality, UNC has "honored" 37 players by hanging their jerseys, and "retired" the numbers of seven former Tar Heels. By comparison, UCLA has retired six numbers, Duke has retired nine. Locally, Oklahoma has two retired numbers, Tulsa five. Policy at each of those schools dictates that none of those retired numbers are to be worn again.

Conversely, Kentucky has retired 39 jerseys, but all of the numbers remain active. Oklahoma State does not retire jerseys or numbers.

And while Carter said he knew of no standing policy at ORU regarding retired numbers, Trickey said there was.

"Hell yeah, we had a policy," Trickey said. "We took them down and said no one else would ever wear them again. Ever. It was in the Hall of Fame by-laws somewhere. (Chancellor Oral) Roberts was the one who agreed to it."

Meanwhile, it all feels like just another slap in the face to Fuqua and his former Titan teammates. He hasn't been to a game in years, he says, because he and many of the old-timers feel shut off from the university and the basketball program.

"They don't involve us in anything," Fuqua said. "I don't expect nothing from them, but just like this thing, what they're doing now. If you talk to any ex-players, they'll tell you the same. They don't feel welcome when they go back.

"If I had it to do all over again, I probably wouldn't have gone to ORU. I could have went to school anywhere. Don't get me wrong. When I was there, it was good. But once you're through playing there, it's like you're really through.",

[ORUalum]

Thank you for posting that article OT.

 

13 years ago Mike Carter blamed a former SID and the team managers for not questioning if they should issue those numbers.  Who will they blame this time?  This is what you get when no one in the athletic dept cares about the history or traditions of the school they work for.  It's basically Stillwater East in that department.

 

As sad as the last few paragraphs are in that article; that Coach Sutton and Mike Carter would knowingly do it again to Fuqua and the Roberts family is even more sad.

 

It's also disappointing that there is not enough alumni or school administration pressure to make them correct this.

[theeagleman5]

This is a disgrace....a total disgrace....somebody needs to be fired!!!......

[theeagleman5]

IF #15 and #24 are on the court at TU this Sunday then TheEagleman is gonna be one pissed off alumnus....someone with some intelligence in the athletic department needs to step up and do the right thing....I mean, it's not like ORU has a ton of all americans.....42, 15 and 24 are retired numbers which means they are sacred and NEVER to be worn again....those Acres, Roberts and Fuqua are probably going down as the 3 greatest players that will ever wear the ORU blue...nothing against the kids wearing 15 and 24 now but a change seriously needs to be made before Sunday....is there no one at 7777 South Lewis with an appreciation of ORU's past??....this is what happens when we don't have alumni running the show.....I understand that we may have more pressing issues in the world but this is something that must be done or it's an insult to the Anthony Roberts and Richard Fuqua and their ORU accomplishments!!!......

[tmh8286]

Lest ORUMom's point be overlooked, here is the quote from the Execllence Magazine, Summer 2002, which included photos from the award ceremony:

"Legends in Their Own Time"

Where would ORU basketball have been without the two young men from Chattanooga? The
talent of Richard Fuqua (74) grew too big for the Health Resources Center. This three-time
All-American, who remains ORU’s No. 1 NCAA scorer (3,002 career points—before the three-
point line), forced ORU to build the Mabee Center...just in time to house the smooth shooting
of Anthony Roberts (77), another three-time All-American. Those who saw “Woosie†score 66
points on Feb. 19, 1977, will never forget him, or the 65 points he scored in an NIT game weeks later
(a record that still stands). On Feb. 16, ORU officially retired the numbers of Fuqua and Roberts. It was an honor
long overdue for two men who helped put ORU on the map.

[Old Titan]

Another irony in this deal is that the Hoover article was the impetus behind Mike Carter approaching me and my dad (former AD Bob Brooks) about forming the letterman's organization that eventually became the ORU Varsity Club.

 

I'll never forget our first order of business:  lunch with a very skeptical Richard Fuqua, who seemed initially hesitant, but eventually receptive, to the idea of returning to the fold, as did Ken Trickey eventually. 

 

The halftime ceremony with Fuqua and Anthony Roberts' widow Rebecca where #24 and #15 were "for-once-and-for-all" retired was the culmination over two years of a lot of diplomacy and a little arm-twisting, and it was hoped at the time to be the final chapter of what had been a fairly embarrassing faux pas.

 

So much for learning from our past mistakes...

[theeagleman5]

Geez....this is just getting downright embarrassing based on the history lessons above......doesn't anyone have a pipeline to Mike Carter???....

[ORUTerry]

This doesn't make sense to me. Why allow this to happen at all? Is it a way for the athletic department to establish that the numbers were not retired - only the jerseys? Hopefully they obtained the approval of Fuqua and Robert's widow. I can't believe that the numbers mean that much to the players.

[ORUTerry]

The ORU Coaches' radio show is on 1550am (and 97.1?) tonight (Monday, November 4th) from 6:00 to 7:00. Do you think Haxton will bring this subject up with Coach Sutton?

[Old Titan]

This doesn't make sense to me. Why allow this to happen at all? Is it a way for the athletic department to establish that the numbers were not retired - only the jerseys? Hopefully they obtained the approval of Fuqua and Robert's widow. I can't believe that the numbers mean that much to the players.

 

FWIW:  I'm told that Coach Sutton did, in fact, ask Richard Fuqua and Rebecca Roberts for their approval before issuing the numbers.

 

But, like I said before, I frankly don't feel the numbers are anyone's to control, not once they're removed from circulation.

 

If Mark Acres or Krista Ragan decide they don't like ORU and want their numbers taken down, would such a request be honored?

 

No, of course not.  No more than their records or their stats would be removed from the media guide.

 

The numbers 15 and 24 were retired - twice.

 

It's done, just like a win or a loss.

 

It's history, and it can't be rewritten.

 

And as far as I'm concerned, when I see those numbers out there, all I see is 15* and 24*.

[ORUalum]

Amen to what everyone is saying.

 

I still think this goes back to Obi transferring from WIU.  I just bet that wearing 15 was a condition of him coming to ORU.  Then once you have have given away 15 to Obi, it's no big deal to give Billbury the 24 he wore at BTW.  I'm not blaming the young men.  This is squarely on Mike Carter and Scott Sutton...they are supposed to be the adults in the room.

 

I don't care if they got permission like OT said.  That just means that Fuqua and Mrs Roberts are too kind to be obstinate about it.  Those numbers were retired TWICE.  Are they hoping to have a third ceremony in a few years, because the first two weren't official, official?

 

[Old Titan]

Great point, and if anyone doesn't think this sort of request happens every fall on campuses across the country, you're fooling yourself.

 

But, you know what you do when you're a coach and a young, new player with no sense of your school's history asks if he can wear a retired number?

 

You (in this case) take him out to the center of the empty Mabee Center, with the seats all dark and those jerseys hanging way up there in the dim light, and you say:

 

"Young man, you see that #24?  Well, when that guy started playing here, ORU played in a cracker-box gym that seated 2000 peaple on wooden benches, with a swimming pool behind the curtain on one end of the court.  But, by the time his 4-year college career was over, he had scored so many points in becoming a consensus All-American and putting THE SCHOOL on the map, that one of the largest private foundations in town had donated the seed money that BUILT THIS ARENA.  He was so good at what he did that he PERSONALLY FILLED ALL 10,000 SEATS IN THIS BUILDING when he played.  They even called it "THE HOUSE THAT FUQUA BUILT".

 

And, you see that #15 up there?  Well, all THAT guy did was score SIXTY-SIX POINTS in a game here one night to set a college record for the state of Oklahoma that still stands FOUR DECADES later, and then a couple of weeks later, scored SIXTY-FIVE POINTS in an NIT game to set a D-1 postseason tournament record THAT WILL NEVER BE BROKEN.  And, WITHOUT A 3-POINT LINE.  He was also named a consensus All-American, was taken in the 1st Round of the 1977 NBA Draft, and went on to play SIX YEARS and score TWO THOUSAND POINTS in the N-B-FREAKING-A"

 

"Now, son, tell me one thing:  what have you done - and what are you going to do - for this program to justify taking that number down, literally and figuratively FROM THE HEAVENS, and letting you wear it for your career?  And, don't tell me it's what you wore when you were a star in high school.  If that's the case, YOUR HIGH SCHOOL should retire the number.  High school's over now, son - it's time to be a MAN.  It's time to be a GIANT - like those two were."

 

"I tell you what, son:  you pick ANY OTHER NUMBER that's not retired, then go out there and make us all proud by doing anything REMOTELY RESEMBLING what those guys did, and then some day, we'll invite you back, and at halftime of a game, with your family and friends standing and applauding, we'll raise YOUR NUMBER up there, where NO ONE ELSE can EVER wear it again -- FOREVER.  How about that, son?"

 

THAT's what you tell 'em...and you don't let 'em have it.

[theeagleman5]

This whole thing is Mickey Mouse.....TheEagleman is done with it.....it's ridiculous.....nobody cares about our past heroes.....and +1000 for your comments, OT...you are exactly right....Fuqua and Roberts made the Mabee Center....those guys will never be topped at 7777 South Lewis......shame on ORU!....         

[postman77]

I am new to posting on this forum, but have followed for a few years.  I understand the attitude about not wanting the jersey numbers worn again--and to a point there were some solid arguments.  However, there are many other institutions--many with far greater history than ORU that have asked for permission for special players to wear certain numbers.  For instance--OU asked for permission for Jordan Woodard to wear the hallowed number 10 of Mookie Blaylock and Hollis Price--two players with significant collegiate and professional accolades.  I know that both former players had individual meetings with the young man, and then fully endorsed him wearing the jersey.  From my understanding--Woodard now feels a deeper debt to his university as two former greats gave him a responsibility to live up to.  Simply put--he doesn't want to embarrass the number.

     To be honest--I believe this to be a silly debate.  Time and history are most definitely an invaluable resource, but the past should simply help brace up the future.  In my opinion, that is exactly what has been done by former greats endorsing and allowing for current players to grace their retired threads.  What a privelage and honor for a young man to be a living representation of the glory years of the past!  I promise it adds to the value and debt that players owe their respected universities every time a rare opportunity like this occurs.  I would say that maybe more credit should be given to a coaching staff that would not easily ask such a thing to ferret out only young men or women that they deem worthy of such an honor.  Coach Sutton has earned this right in my opinion.  Last--but not least--the former players allowed it to take place.  To argue against their own wishes would seem very self-serving in my opinion.

[Old Titan]

I am new to posting on this forum, but have followed for a few years.  I understand the attitude about not wanting the jersey numbers worn again--and to a point there were some solid arguments.  However, there are many other institutions--many with far greater history than ORU that have asked for permission for special players to wear certain numbers.  For instance--OU asked for permission for Jordan Woodard to wear the hallowed number 10 of Mookie Blaylock and Hollis Price--two players with significant collegiate and professional accolades.  I know that both former players had individual meetings with the young man, and then fully endorsed him wearing the jersey.  From my understanding--Woodard now feels a deeper debt to his university as two former greats gave him a responsibility to live up to.  Simply put--he doesn't want to embarrass the number.

     To be honest--I believe this to be a silly debate.  Time and history are most definitely an invaluable resource, but the past should simply help brace up the future.  In my opinion, that is exactly what has been done by former greats endorsing and allowing for current players to grace their retired threads.  What a privelage and honor for a young man to be a living representation of the glory years of the past!  I promise it adds to the value and debt that players owe their respected universities every time a rare opportunity like this occurs.  I would say that maybe more credit should be given to a coaching staff that would not easily ask such a thing to ferret out only young men or women that they deem worthy of such an honor.  Coach Sutton has earned this right in my opinion.  Last--but not least--the former players allowed it to take place.  To argue against their own wishes would seem very self-serving in my opinion.

 

Very well-articulated and reasonable response.

 

I just don't agree with it.

 

I, for one, do not find holding with tradition to be "silly".

 

If this debate is silly, then what about a thousand other athletic traditions that are honored every weekend on college campuses around the country?

 

The slapping of the "Play Like A Champion" signs leaving the locker rooms at OU and Notre Dame?  The rubbing of Howard's Rock entering the field at Clemson?  The 12th Man on special teams at Texas A&M?  The drum major dotting the "I" in "Ohio" at Ohio State?

 

Honoring tradition is what makes college athletics so special, and what makes the legendary programs so noteworthy.  And, as I said in the very first post of this thread:  we have so few athletic traditions at ORU - why are we messing with this one?

 

And as for the former players "endorsing" the move, let's be realistic:  when asked, what would you expect them to do - say "no", and cause a big stink with the current coaching staff?

 

My guess is they reluctantly agreed, but are wishing they had never been asked.  Nobody truly wants their name forgotten, or their records broken, or their retired number worn again.

 

They may say they don't mind, but trust me:  they do.

[postman77]

Very well-articulated and reasonable response.

 

I just don't agree with it.

 

I, for one, do not find holding with tradition to be "silly".

 

If this debate is silly, then what about a thousand other athletic traditions that are honored every weekend on college campuses around the country?

 

The slapping of the "Play Like A Champion" signs leaving the locker rooms at OU and Notre Dame?  The rubbing of Howard's Rock entering the field at Clemson?  The 12th Man on special teams at Texas A&M?  The drum major dotting the "I" in "Ohio" at Ohio State?

 

Honoring tradition is what makes college athletics so special, and what makes the legendary programs so noteworthy.  And, as I said in the very first post of this thread:  we have so few athletic traditions at ORU - why are we messing with this one?

 

And as for the former players "endorsing" the move, let's be realistic:  when asked, what would you expect them to do - say "no", and cause a big stink with the current coaching staff?

 

My guess is they reluctantly agreed, but are wishing they had never been asked.  Nobody truly wants their name forgotten, or their records broken, or their retired number worn again.

 

They may say they don't mind, but trust me:  they do.

OT, you may most certainly be right.  I didn't post in any way to cause a stink--just to show that there are those out there who feel the opposite of those who posted against the jerseys being reintroduced.  I hold no ill will for those people who disagree with me--I just took the opportunity to voice my ideas as well.

     I agree about collegiate "traditions"...they truly do make college unique, fun, and exciting.  I don't categorize tradition as being "silly"--I simply don't agree about the jerseys.  I do see your point on having so few traditions though--I understand that area and know why you hold it dear.

     You may also be right about the former players and their "agreement" or "lack there of."  I cannot speak for them, and obviously don't know them.  However, it would seem that if there was as much a disconnect to the past and ill will as has previously been stated, then neither player (family) would have had much trouble saying thanks but no thanks.  There have been many other situations all over the country where people have refused in the past.  To that end--I would say that we are both just "Guessing."  However, I do very much appreciate what my own experiences have been in that area, and I also used the OU situation as an example of older players who seem to relish the opportunity to embrace the younger generations.  To be honest--Blaylock and Price got far more recognition as a result this year than they had in the past couple as a result! 

     I enjoy reading your thoughts, and in no way criticize your emotions--I also just don't agree.