ORU-MSU

[jmg1984]

oru up 2-0 with msu coming up to bat in the bottom of the 3rd

[jmg1984]

msu scores 2 in the bottom of the 4th to tie it up

[tmh8286]

WOW!  Top of ninth, ORU is down 6-2, ORU loads the bases, next batter gets a base hit but Chad is forced out at home for the second out of the inning.  Bases still loaded.  Steven Pearson steps to the plate and drills one out of there for a GRAND SLAM HOME RUN to tie the game!  Geoff nearly jumped out of his skin on that one.  He said he was sure that all the people near him in the stands could hear his call of that one. 

[tmh8286]

Minissale singles to score Duffy for the go-ahead run in the top of the ninth!!!  Jake added to the run count with a two run HR after that!  These guys are going to win!!  Score at this point, 9-6, ORU!

[Old Titan]

Thanks for the update, TH - I got a phone call right after the grand slam and missed the rest of the inning.

Typical Walton-ball: gritty, and never-say-die. 

Come to think of it, have you EVER seen a Rob Walton-coached ORU team panic?

He is, quite simply, the best coach ORU has ever had - in any sport.

[MoState417]

Good win guys. Our team this year has been a very big disappointment. We have two pitches that will be drafted high, one thats projected to be the second pick and we thought we had a better hitting team too, but we just ended a 14 game losing steak in the game before this one. Anyways what a great comeback. You got to love a team that never gives up like that.

[Mike Minyard]

Just got off the phone with someone who was at the game.  What a great comeback victory!  Goodnight

[tmh8286]

Good win guys. Our team this year has been a very big disappointment. We have two pitches that will be drafted high, one thats projected to be the second pick and we thought we had a better hitting team too, but we just ended a 14 game losing steak in the game before this one. Anyways what a great comeback. You got to love a team that never gives up like that.

Thanks for the kind words, MoState.  Great sportsmanship.  Regardless of your record this season, we still consider a victory over MSU a HUGE win for our program.  You guys are first class, even when you are having a down year. 

You could literally blame the loss on a handful of pitches in the ninth inning.  You've go to feel bad for Todd, who came in to get the last out and had three runs scored on him. 

[TrueBlue82]

The Bears sound like a team looking for a way to lose, while the Walton-coached Eagles are just the opposite.  After a recent 14-game losing streak, a 4-run lead starting the ninth must've seemed paper-thin...and sure enough, the Bears found a way to lose.  The grand slam to tie the game doesn't surprise me - these things "happen" - but giving up three more runs after that (all with two outs and no baserunners) shows a team languishing in utter self-doubt.  I'm really glad ORU escaped with a win - a loss to a team in that condition could've been devastating!

[tmh8286]

After the grand slam, with two outs, the MSU coach, Keith Guttin, immediately put in another pitcher - Austin Todd.  But he just couldn't get the job done.  He faced Duffy first, who he walked.  Duffy stole second, then took third on a throwing error.  Next, Kelly Minissale singled, while Duffy trots home.  Then Jake comes up and homers.  Finally Todd gets a batter out by striking out Chad Rothford. 

Here's another stat question - they gave the loss to Todd, even though only three of the nine runs were at his hand.  Why would that be?  Seems to me like the loss should have gone to the guy that pitched the grand slam, because he was responsible for four runs.  Somebody help me out here!

[Old Titan]

I can't believe I beat Joel to this one!

Once the grand slam cleared the bases and tied the score, the "win-loss" slate is clean for both sides.  Tackett for ORU was officially off the hook for a loss at that point, also.

Todd walked the eventual go-ahead runner (Duffy).  That runner "belongs" to him - that's why he gets the loss.  He would have been the losing pitcher even if they had yanked him after the walk and some other guy had been on the hill when Duffy scored.

And don't you know the ORU relievers were falling all over each other trying to get in for that last half-inning, because whoever pitches it gets the win, by rule.

Brian Lamb - father of current ORU hurler Michael Lamb - was a pitcher for ORU when I was in school.  On a couple of occasions, he entered games with a lead or a tie, would lose the lead or maintain the tie, then have his teammates hit their way back out of the deficit, giving him the win. 

We called him "The Vulture".

[tmh8286]

That's GREAT info, OT.  It explains why Todd got the loss.  But I'm still a little confused about why Luna, who pitched the seventh and eighth innings, got the win, while Crighton, who pitched the ninth, got the save. 

Other than that little bit of confusion, your explanation clears up why the play-by-play described the grand slam as follows:  "Pearson homered down the rf line, 4 RBI, unearned; Genao scored, unearned; Younger scored, unearned; Warfle scored, unearned."  I wondered why the four runs were unearned.  If I'm following what you're saying, I think it would explain it.

Right?

[Bogus Smith]

That's GREAT info, OT.  It explains why Todd got the loss.  But I'm still a little confused about why Luna, who pitched the seventh and eighth innings, got the win, while Crighton, who pitched the ninth, got the save. 

Luna was the "pitcher of record" when the winning run scored in the top of the ninth (Luna finished pitching in the bottom of the 8th before ORU went to bat in the top of the 9th).  Crighton didn't enter the game until the good guys were already ahead, so Eric gets the save for "saving the win" for the good guys.

I didn't get to hear the last inning of the game , so I can't explain the reason for the unearned runs; however, there must have been an error prior to loading the bases because the unearned run(s) were the result of an out that didn't happen due to a defensive miscue.  Had the out happened, there would have been three outs and Pearson would not have gotten up to make the Grand Slam HR.  In essence, all runs scored after a potential third out error will all be unearned (e.g., the offensive team didn't earn the runs).

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!! 

[tmh8286]

Maybe this explains it:

"Oral Roberts 9th - Courtwright to 3b for Drake,Brayde. Rothford singled

up the middle. Van Kirk flied out to rf. Warfle singled through the left side;

Rothford advanced to second. Younger reached on a fielding error by ss; Warfle

advanced to second; Rothford advanced to third. Genao reached on a fielder's

choice; Younger advanced to second; Warfle advanced to third; Rothford out at

home 3b to c. Pearson pinch hit for McQuigg. Pearson homered down the rf line,

4 RBI, unearned; Genao scored, unearned; Younger scored, unearned; Warfle

scored, unearned. Todd,Austin to p for Doyle,Pat. Duffy walked. Duffy stole

second, advanced to third on a throwing error by 1b. Minissale singled up the

middle, RBI; Duffy scored, team unearned. Kahaulelio homered to left center, 2

RBI, team unearned; Minissale scored, team unearned. Rothford struck out

swinging. 7 runs, 5 hits, 2 errors, 0 LOB. "

So it was the error, and NOT the tie-up of the score, that caused those runs to be unearned?  Two different things at work there - an error for the unearned runs, but tying up the score that flushed the run count for the pitchers?  Is that right?  If I'm understaning this correctly, even if those four runs had been earned by Doyle, Todd would have still gotten the loss because the grand slam that tied the score caused the run count to be reset for the pitchers.  Right???

[Old Titan]

Luna was the "pitcher of record" when the winning run scored in the top of the ninth (Luna finished pitching in the bottom of the 8th before ORU went to bat in the top of the 9th).  Crighton didn't enter the game until the good guys were already ahead, so Eric gets the save for "saving the win" for the good guys.

I would like to hear Joel or Blevins weigh in on this - I always thought you're reasoning only applied for a home team who regains the lead/wins the game in the bottom half of the (for example) eighth inning.  The pitcher who pitched the top half of the eighth inning would get the win in that situation, and whoever pitches the top half of the ninth they would get the save (if the lead was only something like one or two runs). 

But, in this case, we were the visiting team.  When we scored all those runs, Luna was effectively done with his job (pitching the eighth).  The tieing/go ahead runs were all scored in the ninth (the top half) and Crichton pitched the ninth (the bottom half).  I thought that makes him the winning pitcher, but I'm probably wrong - my duties as official scorer were a long time ago...

[tmh8286]

All of these intricacies that I never really thought about till I started following ORU more closely are really interesting to me.  I know that officially Luna got the win, so Bogus' explanation does make sense. 

Another very interesting thing is reading the baseball play by play.  Everything you need to know about the game is there.  It's really remarkable. 

[Old Titan]

Here is an excerpt from the 2006 NCAA Rules of Baseball regarding pitcher of record and saves:

Winning and Losing Pitchers

SECTION 25.

a. For all games of eight or more innings, a starting pitcher

must pitch at least five complete innings to receive credit as the winning

pitcher. For all games of fewer than eight innings, the starting pitcher

must pitch at least four innings to get credit for the win. Additionally,

the winning pitcher?s team must be in the lead when he is replaced and

must remain in the lead for the rest of the game.

b. If the starting pitcher does not pitch enough innings, the win is credited

to a relief pitcher in the following manner:

(1) The winning relief pitcher shall be the one who is the pitcher of

record when his team goes ahead and remains ahead throughout the

remainder of the game. No pitcher may receive credit for a victory if

the opposing team ties the score or goes ahead after he has left the

game.

Note: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the

winning and losing pitchers are concerned.

Exception?If a relief pitcher conforms to the above regulations but

pitches briefly and ineffectively, the scorer should not credit him with a

win. If a succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively and helps maintain the

lead, the scorer should award the win to that succeeding pitcher.

(2) By prearrangement, if three or more pitchers are to be used, the

pitcher of record shall be considered the winning pitcher.

c. When a batter or runner is substituted for a pitcher, all runs scored by

his team during that inning are to his credit in determining the pitcher

of record.

d. The starting pitcher shall be charged with the loss if he is replaced at any

time while his team is behind and remains behind for the remainder of

the game. Similarly, any relief pitcher who is the pitcher of record when

the opposing team assumes the lead and never relinquishes it is charged

with the loss.

Note: The pitcher of record shall be the one who is in the game at the time the win-

ning team gains the lead, provided that the lead  never is relinquished, or the one

who is charged with the runs by which the opposing team takes the lead, provided

that the lead never is relinquished.

e. To receive credit for a shutout, the pitcher must pitch the entire game or

enter the game with no outs in the first inning and pitch the rest of the

game without any runs scoring.

Save

SECTION 26.

If a relief pitcher meets ALL of the following conditions, the

official scorer should credit that pitcher with a save:

a. He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team;

b. He is not credited with the win, and

c. He meets one of the following conditions:

(1) He enters the game with a lead of not more than three runs and

pitches at least one inning;

(2) He enters the game with the potential tying run on base, at bat or on

deck, or

(3) He pitches effectively for at least three innings.

Note: No more than one save may be credited in each game.

I highlighted what I consider to be the key element here from a scorer's standpoint:  once Pearson tied the game, all bets are off - Tackett is off the hook for the loss, their starter loses his potential win, and it's at the scorer's discretion as to whether Luna OR Crichton pitched more effectively.  There is no right or wrong answer here - it's at the scorer's discretion, and I have no problem with Luna getting the win and Crichton getting the save in this instance, IF Luna pitched effectively in his short stint.

[tmh8286]

In this instance, Luna pitched for two innings allowed one hit and one run, which WAS better than the two preceding pitchers.  In one inning pitched, Crighton allowed one hit and no runs.

Sounds like there is an element of judgment allowed in this situation, and the win is awarded based on scorer's discretion.  Given the circumstances, the rule book, and your explanation, OT, it seems that it would have been appropriate, and maybe even preferable (based on the rules), for Crighton to have gotten the win.