Expansion Choices....

[mickeyb]

From the Sioux Falls Argus Leader:

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 002/SPORTS

Fullerton does not expect any action to be taken at Tuesday's Big Sky meeting in Missoula, Mont. Montana State President Geoff Gamble said he supports expanding the league from nine to 12 teams and breaking it into north and south divisions. . . .

Both Fullerton and Gamble said the push for additional expansion is being made because athletic directors discovered they were having diffuclties scheduling for basketball in a nine-team league.

While it's obvious a decision probably won't come attheir meetings next week, you'd have to think that at some point this summer an offer would at least be extended to potential members. It doesn't seem the Big Sky wants to be at nine shcools for more than this one year. I don't see any way they don't ask Southern Utah to join. They should be in that league already.

[mickeyb]

Getting back to the original question (who should we add to the Mid-Con), I think UT Pan Am would be the most attractive to ORU. No weather issues at all, an easy SWA flight to Harlingen (1 stop in Houston, advance fares of $99 each way common), then a half hour drive to Edinburg. Harlingen is also a half hour from South Padre Island. State school so they should at least be financially stable.

They may not be the best option for everyone else in the conference, but certainly seem best for us. They may want to hold out for the Southland, though, which would be a much better fit for them.

UTPA will be waiting for forever if they hold out for the Southland. That conference is already adding two schools next year, giving them 12 total and there's no reason to get any bigger than that. UTPA inquired/applied for admission to the Mid-Con a few years back (along with A&M-CC) and were met with a resounding no from the northern schools. Don't think the bus leaguers might have much of a choice this time . . .

[ORUTerry]

I know this is very technical, but I was wondering about the effect of the changes (Chicago State and Valpo leaving - as well as the possibility of SUU leaving as well). I went to the NCAA web site and searched the requirements to maintain eligibility for NCAA post season play. It appears that the rules are split between Men's Basketball and all other sports.

Note that with basketball there is the requirement that there be a minimum of 7 core member schools, with the core members having 8 years of D-I play. (Do all of our members fit this criteria?) Additionally, at least six of the members are required to have played together in the same conference over a five year period. How long has Centenary been in the league? Under these rules, the conference cannot take many more defections or it will lose its automatic NCAA bid.

31.3.4.3 Additional Requirements, Men's Basketball.

The member conference must include seven core institutions. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding five years in men's basketball. There shall be no exception to the five-year waiting period. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies these requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 8/14/90, 12/3/90, 4/27/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

31.3.4.2 Additional Requirements, Sports Other Than Men's Basketball.

To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in a particular sport, a multisport member conference must include six core institutions that satisfy continuity-of-membership. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding two years in the applicable sport. There shall be no exceptions to the two-year waiting period. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies the continuity of membership requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 4/27/00, 10/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 8/5/04)

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3CQHJgFjGpvqRqCKOcAFvfV-P_NxU_QD9gtzQiHJHRUUAbGvNAw!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/legislation_and_governance/rules_and_bylaws/

[ORU Eli]

So unless something happens quick, we'll play 2 less conference games next year and 4 less the following year. When something happens like that do you schedule more OOC games or do you just not play as many games total?

[ORUJason]

Since Valpo will be in the Mid-Con next year (2006-2007), the automatic bids should be safe for 06-07.

But for 2007-2008, the Mid-Con will need 7 schools who have been active members for men's basketball at the D-1 level for the previous 8 years (beginning in 1999).

I'm not sure that Centenary was competing at the D-1 level as an "active member" in 1999. I checked their web-site, but that info wasn't readily available.

If Southern Utah were to announce tomorrow that they were going to the Big Sky in 2007, then the Mid-Con would have to add a team that has been playing D-1 since 1999, or we would lose the men's basketball automatic bid in 2007-2008 school year, because there would only be 6 teams that would have been in D-1 as an active member for the previous 8 years.

This is very serious!

I would think that NDSU and SDSU would be aware of the risk of joining a Mid-Con that wouldn't have a men's basketball automatic bid in 2007-2008, and would as a result prefer a Big Sky bid if it came their way.

Another question is the definition of "active member". If that doesn't include the first couple years of D-1 membership when the team is in transition and is not eligilble for post-season competition, then we could be in trouble.

If there was even one year where we did not get an automatic bid, it would kill recruiting. Mike Carter better get back from his vacation quick.

[ORUJason]

Each NCAA D-1 men's basketball team must have 27 regular season games on their schedule.

Some holiday tournaments allow 2 games to count as 1 game, but I think the rules on that have changed recently.

There are also exceptions for tournaments like the Preseason NIT where participation counts as just one game, because half the teams will only play one game (the teams that lose).

I think there is also some flexibility as to whether a team can choose to count or not count a non D-1 game (like St. Gregory's) as one of their 27 games.

[ORUJason]

Perhaps I am interpreting the NCAA bylaws incorrectly, but for baseball, I think the Mid-Con may not get an automatic bid in 2007-2008...

It looks like in order to meet the continuity of membership requiement, a minimum of 6 "core institutions" (teams that have been D-1 members for the 8 previous years so NDSU, SDSU, Utah Valley St., etc. don't count) must have conducted conference competition together in D-1 for the preceding 2 years in the applicable sport.

When Chicago State and Valparaiso are both gone, I think there will only be 5 core institutions that play baseball...

ORU

Western Illinois

Southern Utah

Oakland

Centenary

IUPUI and UMKC don't play baseball right?

If so, it looks like there will not be an automatic bid in baseball in 2007-2008 or 2008-2009 (unless we add a team for 2006-2007 which is highly unlikely).

I hope someone can interpret this differently and prove me wrong. Otherwise, Valpo and Chicago State both leaving could kill the Mid-Con...

[ORUTerry]

I think there is a 'grace' period (2 years) but I'm not sure how you get around the fact that the NCAA stipulates that the 'core' teams have to play together in the sport for a given time period. We need someone like Rob Marshall, who has an AD's background, to give us some guidance on this.

I agree.... I hope Mike Carter is working on this matter right now.

[s2c]

Perhaps I am interpreting the NCAA bylaws incorrectly, but for baseball, I think the Mid-Con may not get an automatic bid in 2007-2008...

It looks like in order to meet the continuity of membership requiement, a minimum of 6 "core institutions" (teams that have been D-1 members for the 8 previous years so NDSU, SDSU, Utah Valley St., etc. don't count) must have conducted conference competition together in D-1 for the preceding 2 years in the applicable sport.

When Chicago State and Valparaiso are both gone, I think there will only be 5 core institutions that play baseball...

ORU

Western Illinois

Southern Utah

Oakland

Centenary

IUPUI and UMKC don't play baseball right?

If so, it looks like there will not be an automatic bid in baseball in 2007-2008 or 2008-2009 (unless we add a team for 2006-2007 which is highly unlikely).

I hope someone can interpret this differently and prove me wrong. Otherwise, Valpo and Chicago State both leaving could kill the Mid-Con...

If you add UTPA and IPFW immediately for next season as baseball affiliates, you should be o.k. They both have baseball. So do NDSU and SDSU, for that matter, but they wouldn't count as "core" schools.

The problem is basketball longer term.

[s2c]

I know this is very technical, but I was wondering about the effect of the changes (Chicago State and Valpo leaving - as well as the possibility of SUU leaving as well). I went to the NCAA web site and searched the requirements to maintain eligibility for NCAA post season play. It appears that the rules are split between Men's Basketball and all other sports.

Note that with basketball there is the requirement that there be a minimum of 7 core member schools, with the core members having 8 years of D-I play. (Do all of our members fit this criteria?) Additionally, at least six of the members are required to have played together in the same conference over a five year period. How long has Centenary been in the league? Under these rules, the conference cannot take many more defections or it will lose its automatic NCAA bid.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3CQHJgFjGpvqRqCKOcAFvfV-P_NxU_QD9gtzQiHJHRUUAbGvNAw!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/legislation_and_governance/rules_and_bylaws/

With ORU, SUU, OU, WIll, UMKC, and IUPUI, the MidCon has the six needed core institutions together for the required five years. Centenary qualifies as the seventh "core" institution, as its DI history goes back to the old TransAmerica Conference. The main issue is that IPFW and UTPA are the only independent schools that currently satisfy the "core" institution requirement in the event that more schools depart later.

New DI schools like NDSU and SDSU won't count as a DI "core" institution until 2016, even though they would be post-season eligible in the MidCon in 2008-9. Utah Valley State, which is moving up from the JC ranks, wouldn't be DI eligible til 2011 (?) and wouldn't qualify as a "core" institution until around 2019.

The major conferences forced through this "core" institution rule to quell the move ups from DII. A more sinister intentional effect of this rule is to strip the lower level conferences of their auto-bids, so the power conferences get more at-large berths.

It seems absolutely critical that the MidCon add IPFW and UTPA plus a few other move-ups. Then hope and pray there is no more than two "core" schools move out of the conference in the next decade. Although there is a two year grace period given, the MidCon really cannot lose any additional school until Centenary has been in the conference for five years.

[ORUTerry]

Can we ask Chicago State to revoke their resignation from the conference?

[s2c]

Ideally, snagging a couple of schools from the Ohio Valley Conference, like Eastern Illinois or SE Mo St would be ideal. But they'd be reluctant because of football issues and travel to S. Utah. It sort of a Catch 22 situation right now - schools are reluctant to even consider the MidCon because of travel issues (i.e. Southern Utah), but the MidCon without Southern Utah becomes a conference forced to use a grace period to maintain an autobid.

[ORUTerry]

I think Southern Utah is gone..... I suspect that the Big Sky will invite them into their league in June. They are talking about expanding from 9 teams to 12 and Southern Utah makes too much sense.

[ORUJason]

As I see it, if Southern Utah leaves the Mid-Con, then the 6 teams that are left MUST stay in the Mid-Con for the next 5 years (actually 2007-2012 assuming that any teams that are added begin playing in 2007), or the men's basketball auto bid will be lost due to not meeting the requirement for 6 teams to have competed together for 5 years in men's basketball.

Since the bylaws say "no exceptions", I'm not sure if the "grace period" would apply.

Because even if we add UTPA and IPFW to satisfy the 7 core institution requirement, they could not meet the competing together requirement until 2012.

The interesting twist would be if ORU received an invitation to another conference in the next couple of years, it would put us in a position of seriously damaging the Mid-Con were we to move on.

[mickeyb]

If Southern bolts for the Big Sky after the 06-07 season then the Mid-Con losses its AQ immediately . . . UMKC, ORU, IUPUI, Oakland, and Western have all been together for five years, but this is only Centenary's third year in the league (they joined prior to the 2003-04 school year).

[MoState417]

I wish you guys would of joined the Valley in Baseball when you had the chance. You would have only helped the league out in baseball and it could of been your foot in the door to join in the rest of the sports.

I want ORU in the Valley but everyone wants to keep it at 10 teams because we dont have football. I wish we would kick someone out like Drake but they never will.

[vcboy2000]

I wish you guys would of joined the Valley in Baseball when you had the chance. You would have only helped the league out in baseball and it could of been your foot in the door to join in the rest of the sports.

Was there ever a time where the Valley even showed a remote interest in any athletic program at ORU? I highly doubt it. I think our baseball program would thrive in the Valley, but I seriously question your assumption that we were considered.

[ORU-sisko]

I'm pretty sure we were. It was back before Walton, a little while before that I think. I remember the associate invite, i think. Ask Terry, he's brought it up before also i think.