Dirty, dirty, dirty

[JoeyO]

The main story of the game tonight has to be how many timeouts we had remaining after the final buzzer. Did we even call a timeout in the second half? We were up four going in to the second half. When they scored the first six, we have to call a timeout there! Coach Hinson did a great job of weathering our runs throughout the game. Sure, the officiating was a little frustrating but not near as much as our lack of instruction. This is not a team who is going to play through the other team's runs. We do not have a clear cut leader like Luke SG who is going to rally the troops in adversity. I sit behind the visitor's bench and got a chance to watch how cool, collected, and instructive Coach Hinson is during timeouts. He sits his guys down and breaks down what is going on. Solid coaching. We could have limited the thrashing tonight by calling a timeout and letting any one of our 6 suits teach. I always try to look for silver lining. My initial thought is that this kind of game pays off come February and March. We are playing good teams -- MSU is good -- and that builds character if we can capitalize on it. But, that character will only come if the coaches can instruct and teach so the players can learn how to handle those situations better in the future. I hope it will but I'm not sure that will happen judging by the lack of instruction from the bench tonight.

[Guest Rob Marshall]

MabeeJ ... thanks for sharing your perspective from behind the visitors' bench. I don't think too many ORU fans give Barry Hinson the credit he deserves as a basketball coach, but if one drinks the Kool Aid long enough, he eventually believes what he hears I guess.

Nice to hear you saw a different perspective of Barry tonight, one that I've seen him grow in to over the last seven seasons I've been watching his teams play in Springfield and perhaps now some of those who have openly criticized Barry will be equally as complimentary.

[maniac prez]

MabeeJ, brother, I was screaming the same thing all 2nd half!!!!!! They come out firing, you gotta re-organize, settle everyone down, go over what they are doing, COACH!!!!!!! Dear Lord, Sutton's problem is his in-game coaching, I think he and his coaching staff are doing a spectacular job recruiting and in player development, but he is not an accomplished game time coach, and that will be the difference when it comes tourney time and when we play legit team. Talent will only get you so far...

[tmh8286]

MabeeJ ... thanks for sharing your perspective from behind the visitors' bench. I don't think too many ORU fans give Barry Hinson the credit he deserves as a basketball coach, but if one drinks the Kool Aid long enough, he eventually believes what he hears I guess.

Think I'd disagree with you there, Rob. The only criticism I've ever heard about Barry or his coaching from ORU folks had to do with his recruiting at ORU, and whatever that criticism might be, it has to be tempered with the fact that his years at ORU were year one and year two of his D1 coaching career.

The thing I hear brought up about Barry most often is the boiling pot he dove into at SMS/MSU. The demands/expectations on him have been more than I could have endured. In that respect, I'm really glad to see him finally achieving a measure of success. As you say, he's paid his dues. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, this season is the first time in several years that I've gone on their message board and not found calls for his head, and the occasional request for the sacrifice of his first born.

[JoeyO]

Hey Prez,

BTW, I can't tell you how hard I laughed at the "Shirley Temple" cheer last night. Brilliant.

Also, when the ref had just made a terrible call (which one? I know) and he was right in front of you, you guys did a great job of really giving it to him. That type of heckling will work for us later in the game on marginal calls. Great job cheering all the way to the end!

[tbone77]

Maybe if the coaches are not going to call time out during a melt down, we could check into eliminating half-time as it seems this is when the melting starts??????

[Guest Rob Marshall]

People forget that Barry signed two (2) top HS prospects from Oklahoma that left school before they ever played a minute in an ORU game; imagine if Caleb Green would have withdrawn from school prior to the first game of his freshman season? Would that make Scott Sutton a poor recruiter? Not saying the two (2) kids "B" signed were better or even on par with Green from a talent/potential standpoint, but they were BOTH all-state players and would have contributed significantly to ORU's success.

I've personally heard ORU (people) criticize Barry's coaching ability, and that list does not include you Tim so you're clear. But there are others who post on this board and some who don't, who have openly joked about Barry and being glad he moved on.

[ORUHomer]

Go back and re-read MabeeJ's original post. Somehow this thread is evolving into a "praise Barry" fest instead of an honest assessment of our coaching (or lack thereof). I have always been curious of Scott Sutton's "style" of in-game coaching. Last night it seemed he had adopted the "Phil Jackson" approach in which the team is supposed to grow stronger by playing through the adversity. Maybe that is good enough for the NBA, but these are college players who need to be coached. The looks on his face are depressing to watch, the arms continually folded across his chest and hands buried in his head often communicate a "defeatist" attitude. Do his non-verbal cues rub off on the team? Moreso, during time-outs it is not uncommon to see at least 3 different coaches giving instructions. Here's what I generally see:

Coach Sutton: Painful look on his face and lots of silence. Looks at each player in hopes that the non-verbal guilt method will make them play better.

Coach Hankins: Usually quite verbal and instructive teaching going on. Even-tempered but firm.

Coach Phipps: Not quite sure. I guess a bit similar to coach Hankins.

Coach Williams: An encourager. Senses the awkwardness of Coach Sutton's non-verbal coaching and tries to fill the dead-space of silence with encouragement, a bit of teaching, and hand-claps.

I say all that to say this: Look at the top coaches in college basketball (in no particular order), Roy Williams, Tubby Smith, Tom Izzo, Mike Krezewski, Bobby Knight, and Rick Pitino. What do they have in common? They are teachers. Not only in practice, but within the game itself. They pull players to the side, point things out, teach, and finally, they have a verbal plan in the huddle during time-outs.

I don't know if I would label Eddie Sutton as much of an in-game teacher as the coaches listed above, but he still does it more than Scott. As an aside, Eddie would be more "old school" in his style than those listed above, and I would venture to guess that Scott's coaching style would mirror his father. I just don't know if that style will succeed in the long run with today's players. Comments?

I think the world of our program and the job Scott Sutton has done thus far. I think his strength is that he has assembled one of the best "team" of coaches we've had at ORU. I'm just not sold on the "coach by committee" concept when it comes to critical moments in big games. Then again, I've not walked a mile in Scott Sutton's shoes. How 'bout some constructive comments, even from the Scott Sutton faithful?

[Guest Rob Marshall]

One game doesn't make or break the season, and as we've discussed many times only three games in March at the UMAC really matter ... just ask Oakland about that.

To criticize ORU's coaching after one loss to a very good team probably isn't fair balanced. Did Scott and his staff get "out-coached" last night? Yes. Does that translate into "all hope is lost"? No.

Bring on the Mid Con league schedule and do so quickly!!!

[oruvoice]

Go back and re-read MabeeJ's original post. Somehow this thread is evolving into a "praise Barry" fest instead of an honest assessment of our coaching (or lack thereof). I have always been curious of Scott Sutton's "style" of in-game coaching. Last night it seemed he had adopted the "Phil Jackson" approach in which the team is supposed to grow stronger by playing through the adversity. Maybe that is good enough for the NBA, but these are college players who need to be coached. The looks on his face are depressing to watch, the arms continually folded across his chest and hands buried in his head often communicate a "defeatist" attitude. Do his non-verbal cues rub off on the team? Moreso, during time-outs it is not uncommon to see at least 3 different coaches giving instructions. Here's what I generally see:

Coach Sutton: Painful look on his face and lots of silence. Looks at each player in hopes that the non-verbal guilt method will make them play better.

Coach Hankins: Usually quite verbal and instructive teaching going on. Even-tempered but firm.

Coach Phipps: Not quite sure. I guess a bit similar to coach Hankins.

Coach Williams: An encourager. Senses the awkwardness of Coach Sutton's non-verbal coaching and tries to fill the dead-space of silence with encouragement, a bit of teaching, and hand-claps.

I say all that to say this: Look at the top coaches in college basketball (in no particular order), Roy Williams, Tubby Smith, Tom Izzo, Mike Krezewski, Bobby Knight, and Rick Pitino. What do they have in common? They are teachers. Not only in practice, but within the game itself. They pull players to the side, point things out, teach, and finally, they have a verbal plan in the huddle during time-outs.

I don't know if I would label Eddie Sutton as much of an in-game teacher as the coaches listed above, but he still does it more than Scott. As an aside, Eddie would be more "old school" in his style than those listed above, and I would venture to guess that Scott's coaching style would mirror his father. I just don't know if that style will succeed in the long run with today's players. Comments?

I think the world of our program and the job Scott Sutton has done thus far. I think his strength is that he has assembled one of the best "team" of coaches we've had at ORU. I'm just not sold on the "coach by committee" concept when it comes to critical moments in big games. Then again, I've not walked a mile in Scott Sutton's shoes. How 'bout some constructive comments, even from the Scott Sutton faithful?

One of the best posts I've seen in some time. Not really sure I can add much. Still a young staff. Still learning and getting better.

Scott has come a LOOOOONGGG way in the last seven years, but still has a ways to go. Not being ALL OVER the refs last night was one of the MOST FRUSTRATING things I have EVER watched at the Mabee Center. Not getting T'ed up with the officiating last night was bad. And, I am the LAST guy to blame officials, but it is the coaches job to INTIMIDATE the refs into some calls. We talk about not getting "home cooking" from the refs and that is why. If you don't get on them HARD, they won't give you calls. PERIOD.

I'm tired of seeing opposing coaches "work" the officials in OUR FRIGGIN' HOUSE!!!

[JoeyO]

One game doesn't make or break the season, and as we've discussed many times only three games in March at the UMAC really matter ... just ask Oakland about that.

To criticize ORU's coaching after one loss to a very good team probably isn't fair balanced. Did Scott and his staff get "out-coached" last night? Yes. Does that translate into "all hope is lost"? No.

I don't think that we are just criticizing last night's coaching. We would be unjustified if this were not a pattern that we have seen in the last 7 years. Personally, I am not criticizing after one loss but after 7 seasons of disappointment.

BTW, great post Homer -- enjoyed sitting next to you at the game last night.

[Guest Rob Marshall]

it is the coaches job to INTIMIDATE the refs into some calls. We talk about not getting "home cooking" from the refs and that is why. If you don't get on them HARD, they won't give you calls. PERIOD.

[oruvoice]

Sure, the number of fouls looked even, but are you telling me both teams played with an even level of 'physicality'?

MSU pushed us around in our house and we just sat there and took it. Literally and figuratively.

[Guest Rob Marshall]

But Mike, that doesn't have anything to do with the refs, it has to do with ORU not being physical enough. Perhaps that might have been a nice message during a time out when MSU scored the first six points of the second half for an eleven point swing (nine down late in the first half to two up).

If the officals are going to let the guys play, then get your guys to play.

[Stl VU Fan]

I say all that to say this: Look at the top coaches in college basketball (in no particular order), Roy Williams, Tubby Smith, Tom Izzo, Mike Krezewski, Bobby Knight, and Rick Pitino. What do they have in common? They are teachers. Not only in practice, but within the game itself. They pull players to the side, point things out, teach, and finally, they have a verbal plan in the huddle during time-outs.

Great point, and you can also see this from a few Mid-Con coaches every year, most certainly from Homer Drew. I'd guess maybe Kampe and Evans are like that too, but not sure. Homer's the one I notice most for obvious reasons.

That's not the ONLY thing that makes a great coach, of course. I was wondering if last night's game against Marquette might have gone better if Homer had simply left his starters in longer instead of doing his usual substitutions at the 5-minutes-in mark.

[ORUTerry]

I agree Rob about letting them play, but in reviewing the game last night that is not what the refs did. One side got to 'play' and the other side didn't. Very frustrating. An even stat line on fouls does not tell the whole story.

[Guest Rob Marshall]

Terry, if ORU were whistled for 30 fouls to MSU's 18 and/or MSU was in the double bonus early in either or both halfs then I'd say you have a point. Because ORU choose NOT to match the physical style, is no fault of the officials.

Again, "no-calls" and questionable calls went both ways and keep in mind when one stands on the moon and looks back at the earth s/he only sees one side. That said, if ORU wins the game, no one is talking much about the officiating on the message board today. :idea:

[ashVID]

One thing that is important to note is that a team establishes how physical they are, not the refs. When a team decides to play physical, you have to play back at them, not lay back and whine to the refs. This has been an issue with TU for the last 5 years.

ash =o)