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Augustana to the Summit?


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https://kwsn.com/podcasts/sports-talk-with-kwsn/5093/tom-douple-on-summit-tourneys-decade-in-sioux-falls-augustana-possibility/#

Douple talks about PUFW and WIU wanting to leave, Augustana joining and the need for more men’s soccer schools.

The Dakotas are not adding men’s soccer.  Omaha, Denver and ORU will need to look elsewhere for that ( as an MVC affiliate).

The Summit will fall below the minimum number of men team sports required.  The loss of an autobid would result.   But if the Dakotas add football, a loss of a dance bid would be averted.

As said many times before, adding the Montanas, Idaho, EWU, and Weber St would make the Summit extremely solid.  This is why UND joined in the first place as they knew reinforcement were coming.  Dixie St , Metro St of Denver, and CWU will join the Big Sky to replace them.

Good luck to ORU.

I’ll Let Old Titan have another stroke on this board.

Some people are not smart enough to realize that the WAC “add”is just a planned deception.  The Big Sky is already too big.  The WAC, Big Sky and Summit are coordinating some major changes soon, and the Big Sky adding teams would reveal that some schools are leaving, which Presidents don’t want to do yet.  The Big Sky will be a one a beginners league of schools with lower budgets and attendance.  The WAC and Summit will be elevated leagues.

 

 

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I listened briefly to Douple's interview posted above.  He talked more about financial constraints WIU was facing due to funding by the State of Illinois.  From the sound of things, Purdue Fort Wayne is doing better.  However, he did emphasize two key points.  The first was that ANY university wishing to leave the Summit was going to have to pay a $1,000,000 exit fee.  Secondly, at the end of the day it is the collective University Presidents who make the final decision on who can come into the Summit.  He also was high on UMKC coming back into the League and says they basically have an open door invitation.  As for Augustana he said he had been contacted by both Augustana's AD and Pres about an interest in possibly joining the league but again emphasized that the collective University Presidents of the Summit League schools would make that decision if and/or when they ever thought that necessary.  On a personal note, if looking to expand I would look to both New Mexico State and Grand Canyon University.  FWIW, that is not going to happen either.

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ORU was a key player that kept the Summit League alive with its baseball and men’s soccer programs so the Summit saved its dance bigpd.  It will be rewarded by not charging exit fee or entrance fees and will be a travel partner with UMKC in the WAC when Southland schools slide over.  Southland fb schools that want FBS  will be a key part of the new WAC.

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Another shoe is dropping, this time Metro St of Denver, just as I said would happen.

https://msudenver.edu/early-bird/2019/03/14-trustee-update.shtml

By summer, the WAC, Summit and Big Sky will be effectively swapping teams.

 

Just trying to get you fair warning, but all I get is grief.  The Old Testament prophets has similar problems from the Sanhedrin and other “religious”Jews.

 

 

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george.gif.37bcc9f34f43a5113acba2692d24703f.gif

 

-----------------

This is my all time favorite discussion thread.  Credit to UNDfan, he's sticking to his guns on the big shakeup he sees coming.

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  • 2 months later...

A huge long shot situation is developing in Minnesota. A Division III private school(University of St Thomas) is getting kicked out of its conference because they've gotten too good. A conference they've been in for literally 100 years(founding member), and whose membership hasn't changed at all in about 35 years. It's actually getting some national(even international) attention.

Anyway, they'll be looking for a new home and there's a lot of debate about where they're going to end up. The safe bet is a neighboring Wisconsin DIII conference, but all the full members of that group are public WI schools. The other DIII local conference(UMAC) fits them even less than the one they're getting kicked out of.

Many think that UST will use this opportunity to move up a division. There's a local DII conference that's a decent possibility(NSIC - which is where Augustana is now). There are a couple more conferences in Great Lakes country, but a Minneapolis college would be a bit of a stretch to their footprints.

The final possibility is that they might try to springboard directly to DI. Minnesota only has the one DI school at the moment, so there is a gap waiting to be filled. And the MSP market would be nice for the Summit or MVC. The big problem, of course, is that the NCAA rules don't allow for a direct move from DIII to DI. As the current rules stand, it would take something like 13 or 15 years for UST to be DI eligible. And that's an eternity. The only thing people are wondering about is if the fact they were forced out of their current conference would make a difference. That maybe if they went to the NCAA with a DI conference invite in hand, they could maybe swing a waiver due to their unusual circumstance. It's pretty doubtful, but there was that situation with Liberty a few years back that shows waivers are possible for stuff even if they aren't likely.

 

Anyway, I expect UST will end up in the WIAC(DIII) or NSIC(DII), but it's worth keeping an eye on just in case.

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the huge distinction between D-2 and D-3 is that D-3 schools do not have athletic scholarships?

Seems like that might present a slight challenge to the ol’ athletic budget if they made any move up...

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3 hours ago, Old Titan said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the huge distinction between D-2 and D-3 is that D-3 schools do not have athletic scholarships?

Seems like that might present a slight challenge to the ol’ athletic budget if they made any move up...

Correct, but UST is a relatively wealthy and growing school. They might see the value in a higher profile. But everything is speculation at this point.

 

UST quick facts:

Endowment about $450M

University budget about $375M

Enrollment about 10k (60/40 split undergrad to grad)

Athletic budget around $5M

Number of sports: 22 (counting XC/IT&F/OT&F as 3 sports)

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I was trying to be polite in my earlier post. 

Here’s something more my typical style:  

“There’s no freaking way.” 

😙

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 12/17/2018 at 8:23 PM, UNDfan said:

T. Denny Sanford has plans to give away $2.2 billion before his passing and is 82 right now.  Each of USD, SDSU, and NDSU have gotten ten of millions from him for facilities.  He can get on a phone and they would votes yes in an instant if he threatens.  It probably was written into their facilities contract.  UND and Omaha haven’t gotten yet, but a “yes” might take $10million or so.

The Augie President is making comparisons to Creighton, Drake, Valpo and Bradley as schools she wants Augie to be like, so obviously she knows donations will be landsliding in from a source.  Sanford made his fortune in the credit card industry, as SD passed a law to have no limits on credit card interest rates.  Sanford was waiting with Sioux Falls credit operations and made a fortune.  He wants to give back to Sioux Falls what was stolen from the rest of the country.  He oversees/finances a large chain of hospitals in the Dakota and Minnesota and there is talk he wants to establish a Augustana Medical School.  He has already given ten of millions to the U of Minnesota, as he was born in St Paul.

But it won’t matter to ORU, as you are WAC bound with Sam Houston St, Lamar, McNeese St, Incarnate Word as well as the California FCS schools.  UMKC will be your travel partner.

After a year of trying, UNDfan has finally NAILED a prediction:  starting in 2020, ORU and UMKC WILL be travel partners!!  🤣😂

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/27/2019 at 1:06 PM, Old Titan said:

I was trying to be polite in my earlier post. 

Here’s something more my typical style:  

“There’s no freaking way.” 

😙

<cough>

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d1/council/Jun2019D1Council_Report.pdf

Quote

Review of Reclassification Process. (Fairness/Well-Being/Operational)

The Strategic Vision and Planning Committee will continue to discuss whether an institution should have an opportunity to reclassify from Division III to Division I, without first requiring that institution be a Division II member, noting the importance of ensuring preparedness for Division I membership.

 

I still don't think the chance of St Thomas joining the Summit is near 50% yet, but it's way more than the 2-5% chance I gave it a few months ago. Would take St Thomas over Augie in a heartbeat.

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16 hours ago, Hammersmith said:

Would take St Thomas over Augie in a heartbeat.

If it's between those two, St. Thomas all the way.

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Either of these two non-D1 schools joining the Summit League (and saving the baseball bid without a hiccup) would require a plethora of NCAA exemptions.

It's a fascinating (and frankly scary) situation if both schools - and their respective sugar-daddy donors - are putting pressure on Tom Douple and the league office to accept them for the potential financial benefits in the long run, if doing so possibly hurts the league competitively in the short run.

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I too have been trying to get my brain around the logic of the Summit going after either Augustana or St. Thomas, one being a D-II school and the other being a D-III school.  Frankly, I find the notion as being insane except for the fact that I listened to the podcast of the "Brakedown on Bison 1660 AM" posted in another thread on this Board.  After listening to the commentator in that podcast I came away shocked.  He was basically advocating that the Summit should go after Augustana and also acknowledged that the Summit had not only discussed with and vetted Grand Canyon University,  the Summit then declined to extend to them an invitation to join the League.  If this is so, what a shame.  BTW, we were the school asking the Summit to invite GCU to join the League.

Grand Canyon University up unto last year was and is a private Christian for-profit university located in Phoenix, Arizona.  They have now gone for non-profit status.  In the 2nd quarter of 2017 their net profit was a little north of $873,000,000.00.  You read that right, as of the 2nd quarter in 2017 their net-profit was north of $873 Million.  They have a little over 19,000 students on the campus and another 70,000+ enrolled online.  Their men's basketball budget for 2017-18 was just north of $4,200,000.00, automatically making that what would have been the largest MBB budget in the Summit, even ahead of Denver and us, who have the next two highest MBB budgets in the Summit.  Ours is around $3.2 million and Denver's is north of that.  Grand Canyon just completed a facilities building project nicknamed "10 for 2" whereby they built or upgraded 10 sports facilities on campus spending over $200,000,000.00 in 2 years (2016-18).  Their MBB HC is none other then 14 year Phoenix Suns star Dan Majerle.  Their basketball arena was opened in 2011, seats 7,000 and regularly sells-out.  They also have a separate practice facility which includes 4 full-sized courts.  Their baseball facility was opened/renovated in 2018 and seats 4,000 rivaling most SEC facilities, not only for seating but amenities as well.  And finally, their MBB record last year was 20-14 and Arizona State which is just across town refuses to play them.   Therefore, I think you can understand how I am having a difficult time seeing the Summit supposedly passing on a team which would have instantly upgraded our League and instead supposedly is going after one of two other schools, neither of which even competes at the D-I level IN ANY SPORT.

If this is true that we did not invite GCU but instead are pursuing either Augustana or St. Thomas, how small minded can the League get?  If this is in fact so, how pathetic this League truly is.

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Really good stuff there, 82......The Summit is a loser conference....how can you be dumb enough to turn down an up and coming school like Grand Canyon?....so small minded.....ORU is outnumbered and out voted every time....we should look to move on but I guess not too many landing spots for a small private school like ORU.......😭😬😡

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Travel would not be kind....and that would be the only negative presidents of the HL would have as they like they're bus league.  But I think the HL would vote for ORU to be a 12th member.  After all, there are a lot of old friends in the HL. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 2:59 PM, ORU82 said:

Grand Canyon University up unto last year was and is a private Christian for-profit university located in Phoenix, Arizona.  They have now gone for non-profit status.  In the 2nd quarter of 2017 their net profit was a little north of $873,000,000.00.  You read that right, as of the 2nd quarter in 2017 their net-profit was north of $873 Million.  They have a little over 19,000 students on the campus and another 70,000+ enrolled online.  Their men's basketball budget for 2017-18 was just north of $4,200,000.00, automatically making that what would have been the largest MBB budget in the Summit, even ahead of Denver and us, who have the next two highest MBB budgets in the Summit.  Ours is around $3.2 million and Denver's is north of that.  Grand Canyon just completed a facilities building project nicknamed "10 for 2" whereby they built or upgraded 10 sports facilities on campus spending over $200,000,000.00 in 2 years (2016-18).

I think GCU's potential is what scared the Dakota schools off. They apparently want to recreate their old D2 league instead facing increased competition.

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Before we fall too much in love with Grand Canyon, read these excerpts from their Wikipedia page:

Grand Canyon was established by the Arizona Southern Baptist Convention on August 1, 1949, in Prescott, AZ as Grand Canyon College.  In 2000, the university ended its affiliation with the Southern Baptist Convention.   Suffering subsequent financial difficulties, the Grand Canyon trustees authorized the sale of the school in January 2004 to California-based Significant Education, LLC, making it the first for-profit Christian college in the United States.  Following that purchase, the university became the first and only for-profit institution to participate in NCAA Division 1 athletics.  In early 2018, the university received approval to return to non-profit status, which became official July 1, 2018.  Although the educational arm of the college is non-profit, it still operates alongside the for-profit Grand Canyon Education Corporation, which bundles services for university operations. The university president, Brian Meuller, also serves as the CEO of Grand Canyon Education, Inc.

Grand Canyon's switch from for-profit status to non-profit status was reportedly due to its yearly $9.2 million property tax bill.   Numerous school officials said that expense was unsustainable and was the key reason why a switch from for-profit to non-profit status was made.  Some critics of for-profit education allege that the relationship between GCU and Grand Canyon Education Inc. is too intertwined.   A former US Department of Education official noted that no other university in the country has a CEO working for its main contractor and itself.  Brian Galle, Professor of Law at Georgetown Law, has written extensively about the relationship between the non-profit and for-profit entities and argues that because the non-profit is wholly dependent on the for-profit, the non-profit status should not be allowed.

Always consider this fact when pondering conference membership issues:  you're dealing with university presidents on these decisions, who tend to view things from the perspective of academics and reputation.  Grand Canyon is pretty shaky on both accounts.  I don't think I share much enthusiasm for them in the long run; it reminds me too much of ORU's financial (and perceptual) struggles in the past.  I'm guessing that's exactly what the other Summit school's are thinking as well:  too risky, too uncontrollable, too controversial.

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Quote

(This blog covering DU is well written and good resource not just for Denver sports but the Summit League as a whole)

Cozy Summit League relationships cast dark shadow over Augustana

Conference coaches jokingly refer to the Summit League as the ‘Sanford League’. But let’s hope the Dakota-centric league rethinks their reliance on North and South Dakota for new members. With only 880,000 people in South Dakota and 760,000 people in North Dakota, a sixth DI member from one of the two states, Augustana University, may be too many – even for die-hard locals...

... According to KELO, South Dakota athletic director David Herbster said, as of now, “everybody would probably say ‘no,'” Herbster said. “The only reason I say that is right now, I might know enough about Augustana, but probably other members in the league right now don’t know anything about Augustana — the athletic department, their profile, even the university. So, as part of that process, whether it is a campus visit or different things like that, when Augustana gets to the point where they feel like they can start to have those conversations, then they reach out.”...

KELO: USD's Herbster: Summit schools not bully on Augie joining... yet

 

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It's pretty obvious that SDSU does not want Augustana in the league. 

I'm guessing their opposition has more/everything to do with competing for fans, donors, sponsors, etc., in that region than it has to do with athletic competition on the fields & courts.

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