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Old Titan

What Should The MVC Do If/When Wichita State Leaves?

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Old Titan

Interesting article about the domino effect that will transpire if/when (as discussed in another thread) Wichita State bolts the Missouri Valley for the AAC (which is worried about losing UConn to the Big East).

Hard to imagine the Summit League will not be dealt a blow - perhaps crippling - depending on which direction The Valley takes:

What Should The MVC Do When/If Wichita State Leaves? (midmajormadness.com)

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ORUalum

i think they add Belmont for the Nashville market and call it a day.

i just don't see the MVC going with the options that involved adding 3 or 4 teams to the league.

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Old Titan
19 minutes ago, ORUalum said:

i think they add Belmont for the Nashville market and call it a day.

i just don't see the MVC going with the options that involved adding 3 or 4 teams to the league.

In that event, The Valley becomes The Sunbelt 2.0. 

If they want to keep their media deals and their big sponsors/crowds for Arch Madness, they need to make a bigger splash than that (read "bigger splash" as "larger fan bases and/or bigger schools")

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theeagleman5

ORU to MVC?...NFW (no f---ing way...lol) but TheEagleman would love to see it. We would have to step up our game in all sports but maybe that's the commitment its going to take....I would have to set ORU's chances at no better than 5%.....we don't have that kind of $$$....Why not TU coming back in?...either with ORU or on their own. Tulsa is a great town for that league....wouldn't it be a killer if TU had to play us twice?...I know...NFW.   :geek::oru-logo:

 

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ORUJason

I believe if the MVC loses Wichita State, they will be comparable to the Summit League in conference basketball RPI and overall quality of athletic programs.  In 5 years, if the Summit League and MVC stay relatively the same in membership, the Summit League will have surpassed the MVC in quality and perception.  The Summit League is on an upward trajectory and the MVC is on a downward trajectory.  

The MVC could lose other quality programs like Illinois State to other conferences as well.  Then you are left with Drake, Evansville, Bradley, Indiana State, etc.  St. Louis, Creighton, and soon Wichita State are gone and the MVC may face some real challenges in the future, including a loss of MVC and NCAA Tournament revenue (due to lower attendance and fewer potential future NCAA wins) that I am sure those athletics departments have counted on for years.

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ORU82

I agree Jason, if/when WSU leaves the MVC that conference's RPI goes way down.  At that point the MVC and Summit are equal in my opinion and in a few years I see the Summit surpassing the MVC across the board in everything.  It might pay for the Summit to try and cherry pick a couple of the better remaining MVC teams.

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theeagleman5

ORU just can't seem to compete in the Summit since we returned....those Dakota schools have too much football $$$.....might be better for us in the MVC in all sports because we are getting hammered except in baseball.....:geek:

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ORU82

Unless you are a P5 team the myth that your football program generates a lot of money is just that, a myth.  Yes, the top of the heap in FBS/D-IA programs make obscene amounts of $$$ for their respective institutions.  However the farther you go down the food chain and especially in the FCS/D-IAA realm, having a football program is a serious drain on your athletic budget. 

Secondly and also as expensive to operate is if your school has a D-I hockey program.  That too sucks serious $$$ out of your budget. 

Finally, it was posted a couple years ago that when we went back into the Summit our athletic budget for MBB was second only to Denver in terms of amount spent or allocated for the program.  In other words, we are basically at the top of the heap in the Summit on what is spent on MBB.

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Old Titan
3 hours ago, ORU82 said:

Unless you are a P5 team the myth that your football program generates a lot of money is just that, a myth.  Yes, the top of the heap in FBS/D-IA programs make obscene amounts of $$$ for their respective institutions.  However the farther you go down the food chain and especially in the FCS/D-IAA realm, having a football program is a serious drain on your athletic budget. 

Secondly and also as expensive to operate is if your school has a D-I hockey program.  That too sucks serious $$$ out of our budget. 

Finally, it was posted a couple years ago that when we went back into the Summit our athletic budget for MBB was second only to Denver in terms of amount spent or allocated for the program.  In other words, we are basically at the top of the heap in the Summit on what is spent on MBB.

While football can be a drain on the athletic budget for smaller schools that don't draw well, it can be an overall loss-leader for smaller schools in general when you consider that a fair portion of those athletes are on partial scholarships, and therefore paying some of their way to attend that school, along with walk-ons who are paying the full boat. 

Add to that cheerleaders, band members, student workers in athletic training, media relations, game ops, marketing, etc. and you've got an entire universe of support personnel who are adding to the school's bottom line through paying their way to go to school.

That's why so many non-scholarship D-III schools love their football:  EVERYONE involved "pays to play", and it's seen as a net profit center for them, and a "front porch" recruiting tool for student enrollment.

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ORUalum

i just want to compete for championships again.  is the SWAC expanding???? :D:eagles::D

Make ORUathletics Great Again!!!

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ORU82

Correct OT, but if you are FBS/D-IA you are funding 85 full scholarships with stipends on top of that along with training table meals which are way beyond what you would ever see in SAGA or the average dining hall on most universities.  Then you throw in a medical staff traveling with the team to away games as well as making appearances at all home games, a staff of full time trainers, several strength and conditioning coaches, position coaches, head assistant coaches, offensive/defensive coordinators, film crews, travel teams to leave a couple days early for away games to get the team's gear/equipment to the games consisting of at least a couple 2 ton trucks or a tractor trailer, a charter flight to get 100+ people to all away games, hotel rooms for all of those people, chartered busses in the cities you are playing away games in to get everyone from the hotel to the stadium, specially catered meals to feed all those people plus snacks for the night before for the players in their rooms, several grad assistants to help as gophers, a hefty budget for recruiting so that you can sign 20 - 25 kids per year to come and play for you, and I could go on.  If you are FCS-D-IAA you have the same expenses but are only handing out 60 full scholarships instead of 85.

Where the FBS/D-IA programs really make the money is in broadcasting rights with ESPN/FOX/CBS/NBC/ABC/BIGTEN NETWORK/SEC NETWORK/ACC NETWORK.  Those contracts make very serious $$$ for the league/conference.  However, FCS/D-IAA do not see that type of money.

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Dr. Cornelius
On 3/29/2017 at 3:44 PM, ORUalum said:

i think they add Belmont for the Nashville market and call it a day.

i just don't see the MVC going with the options that involved adding 3 or 4 teams to the league.

Belmont is not interest in joining the MVC. Their President has been pretty open about wanting to stay top dog in the OVC. They made no effort to join the MVC when Loyola was added (even though they were asked).

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ORUalum
11 minutes ago, Dr. Cornelius said:

Belmont is not interest in joining the MVC. Their President has been pretty open about wanting to stay top dog in the OVC. They made no effort to join the MVC when Loyola was added (even though they were asked).

thanks Doc C......well, so much for my theory

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Old Titan

Let the dominoes begin...

 

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ORUTerry

They are joining next year? That is quick.

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Old Titan

 

"Arch Sadness"  ;(

 

 

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Old Titan

 

The next domino...

 

 

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Old Titan

Based on discussions years ago at the highest levels on campus, when this sort of move was a more likely scenario, ORU would most likely (in the paraphrased words of LBJ in '68) "neither pursue nor accept" an invitation to The Valley:  too expensive to remain competitive.

For example, did you know that most (all?) Valley teams fly charters to their away games? 

ORU sometimes has to bus places because commercial flights are too expensive.  Chartering flights is not even a consideration.

It's a whole different ball game at that level:  the difference between "mid major" and "low major".

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WingMaaaan

I have a soft spot for folks who don't settle for the safe route all the time. Big thanks to Doug for the love but unfortunately this university isn't the "maker no little plans" school it used to be. 

 

Edit: 

I realize it isn't that simple.  While I do believe there are far too many settlers in positions of power at the university, mostly I'm just frustrated. 

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TrueBlue82

While I doubt it would be offered or accepted, ORU would make a lot of sense from a geographic standpoint.  Great travel partner for Missouri State, which without Wichita State or ORU would be out on its own island...

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EagleManiac

Much appreciation to Gottlieb for throwing our name out there, but I'd have no interest in going to the Valley. With this move, they are a floundering league, and unfortunately by adding us would become even worse. Assuming Wichita goes, the Summit will pass them in top-to-bottom quality in the next few years, if not next season. 

 

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ORU82

I did a little research on where we stand regarding our Men's Basketball Budget as compared to both the MVC and the Summit.  It makes for an interesting read. 

This is where we would be if we were in the MVC in the 2015-16 basketball season, the first figure establishes where the school ranks MBB budget wise in the MVC, the second figure establishes the respective school's MBB budget, and the third figure establishes where that school's MBB budget ranks in D-I basketball in the nation: 

  1. Wichita State - $6,920,933 - 56
  2. Bradley - $3,128,419 - 121
  3. UNI - $2,899,699 - 132
  4. Evansville - $2,899,667 - 133
  5. Loyola - $2,745,553 - 139
  6. ORU - $2,741,483 - 140
  7. Drake - $2,472,212 - 153
  8. Illinois State - $2,452,961 - 156
  9. Missouri State - $2,279,917 - 171
  10. SIU - $2,241,413 - 175
  11. Indiana State - $1,832,975 - 208.

If you remove Wichita State from the equation, the separation between Bradley (who is the next highest in the MVC) and us is $386,936.  However, the separation between us and the next highest (UNI) is only $158,216 which in today's world is not a very big gap to overcome.

When you look at the Summit, using the same reporting criteria for the 2015-16 basketball season, it is as follows: 

  1. Denver - $3,361,111 - 114
  2. ORU - $2,741,483 - 140
  3. UND - $1,579,108 - 251
  4. IUPUI - $1,564,479 - 253
  5. SDSU - $1,443,001 - 274
  6. NDSU - $1,417,450 - 278
  7. UNO - $1,288,481 - 300
  8. IPFW - 1,269,206 - 303
  9. WIU - 1,238,197 - 304
  10. USD - $1,156,551 - 313. 

Even though our fellow comrades in the Summit are spending less than what our MVC counterparts are spending, I still feel that the Summit is equal to the MVC without Wichita State when it comes to upside.  What the Summit may want to do is look to raid the MVC when Wichita State leaves and get a couple of their better teams to come to the Summit.

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WingMaaaan

I think we're discounting the brand of the MVC just a little. Hoop nerds like us might understand that from a quality basketball standpoint the Summit and Valley (sans Wichita) are very similar but most people don't (including most recruits). Sure the Valley is going to have to make some big adjustments to keep the brand value high(ish) but make no mistake, in terms of perception, this would be a big step up for ORU. 

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EagleManiac

Thanks for posting that research 82. Interesting information. More than anything I'm shocked by the numbers of the Dakota schools. They're having a lot of success up there for the amount of cash they're putting in. We're spending nearly double what XDSU's are spending and still getting smoked by them year after year. Troubling. 

 

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