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Welcome back to The Summit


rabbit74

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Welcome back to The Summit in just a few days.  You will find The Summit to be a stronger league than when you left.  The addition of Denver is a high light for the sports they sponsor.  The departure of one of the weaker schools from the conference has also served to raise the caliber of competition.  And USD is coming along nicely in some sports.  Omaha has won the regular season baseball title the last two years but won't be eligible for post season for another year.

 

I look forward to seeing the Golden Eagles try :) to challenge our Jackrabbits again.  I felt that we were just beginning to develop a good rivalry when you left.  The Jacks have won the Commissioner's Cup the past two seasons and this year won both the men's and women's all sports trophy.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Jacks compete this year in men's basketball with the loss of four of the top 6 players.  But there are some good new players coming in including a transfer from Wisconsin who will be eligible to play in the spring semester

 

It is quite possible that this year's women's basketball team could be the best ever for SDSU.

 

In any case, I look forward to seeing you play in Brookings and Sioux Falls this year.

 

 

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Let's raise an Old Milwaukee to our old friends in the Summit!!!.... :clap:

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Wishing you success in the Summit.  I thought you were a great add to the SLC and will be a great re-add to the Summit.

 

I would have liked ORU stick around a little longer and help grow our conference, but I understand that a university has to make the moves it thinks are in its best interest.  I was excited with the announcement that ORU was joining the SLC and was looking forward to some good basketball and baseball games with the Golden Eagles.  My wife has tons of relatives in the Oklahoma City / Tulsa area so I was looking forward to road trips up the Indian Nation Turnpike and on to Tulsa.  We even have a PikePass on our car.  :smile:

 

Our men's basketball team killed hope of decent competition with anyone the last two years with the worst two seasons in our history.  All we did was help drag down the conference RPI.  It would be nice to meet each other in OOC when the our team is competitive again.

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TheEagleman would be all in favor of a home and home series with Lamar......where do we sign????? :nerd:

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ORU is coming off arguably it's worst D-1 athletic campaign in 30 years:  only one men's team finished in the upper division of conference play in 8 sports (men's basketball - tie for 6th), while just three women's teams finished in the upper half of the conference standings in their respective 8 sports (soccer, volleyball and golf).

 

The ultimate indignity may have been the 15-time Mid-Con/Summit League champion ORU baseball team finishing 9th in Southland Conference play and not even qualifying for the post-season tournament.

 

Regardless of the strength of the Summit League, it's a welcome change of scenery after that nightmare.

 

Nowhere to go but up....

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Was there any particular reason your athletic teams dropped off in competitiveness last year?  I don't think the Southland is as strong as the Summit in most sports.  Or was it just one of those cyclic things that hits every once in a while?

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I believe overall the Summit is stronger, but the Southland did have a few good teams/athletes. However, the Southland as a conference is a complete joke basically going nowhere fast. Thank God we are out of it.

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Perhaps I was not clear enough in my last post. For any AD considering a move to the Southland they should first put down the crack bowl, and then back away from the liquor cabinet.

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Was there any particular reason your athletic teams dropped off in competitiveness last year?  I don't think the Southland is as strong as the Summit in most sports.  Or was it just one of those cyclic things that hits every once in a while?

Sad to see ORU leave, but wish the Golden Eagles and the rest of the Summit League future success.

 

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I'm a numbers person so I was curious how the numbers stacked up for each conference in two of ORU's main sports.

 

Arguably, the Southland has better baseball.  For example, ORU with an RPI of 95, would be the highest RPI for the Summit.  The next highest Summit RPI was Omaha at 177.  The Southland had two teams with better RPI's than ORU, Sam Houston State (34) and Southeastern Louisiana (67).

 

Excluding ORU, the Southland had 9 teams with an RPI better than 200.  All 9 had a better RPI than Omaha's 177.  The Summit had one team with an RPI better than 200, Omaha. 

 

Two SLC teams made the NCAA tournament for the third straight year.  SHSU won 2 tournament games in the 2014 tournament.  SLU won 1 tournament game in the 2014 tournament.  For the second year, an SLC team made it to the Regional final game.  Summit rep NDSU did not win a game in the 2014 tournament.

 

For the Southland, one question is how well ACU and UIW transition into D-1.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

In men's basketball, I think the Summit has the edge, but it's a little more complicated.  The top of the SLC compares favorably with the Summit.   The Southland's problem is the bottom, regrettably including us the last two years.  Hopefully, our ship is being righted.  (Too bad ORU caught us with the two worst years in our history.)

 

Breaking it down a little more...

 

Excluding ORU, the Southland had 3 teams with an RPI better than 200.  The Summit had 4.  Looking at the lowest Summit RPI (322 for IUPUI), the Summit and the Southland had the same amount of teams with 322 or better (excluding ORU).  The NCAA tournament representatives of both conferences had about the same success.  SFA was a 12 seed in the South Region.  NDSU was a 12 seed in the Midwest Region.  SFA defeated 5 seed VCU.  NDSU defeated Oklahoma.  SFA lost to 4 seed UCLA 77-60.  NDSU lost to 4 seed San Diego State 63-40.  Both conferences were one bid leagues.

 

The bottom in the Southland stinks.  That's where the Summit has the advantage.

 

I personally think the Southland needs to put a greater emphasis on basketball.  I think the SLC's lack of emphasis in one of ORU's main sports was probably a deciding factor in the Golden Eagles move back to the Summit.  According to the Department of Education OPE Equity in Athletics database, the Summit has 5 programs with expenditures over $1,000,000 in basketball while the Southland has three (excluding ORU).  As a member of the SLC, ORU had the highest expenditure in basketball by far...around $1,000,000 more than the next highest spender, TAMU-CC.  My university was close behind TAMU-CC.

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However, the Southland as a conference is a complete joke basically going nowhere fast. Thank God we are out of it.

 

 

Perhaps I was not clear enough in my last post. For any AD considering a move to the Southland they should first put down the crack bowl, and then back away from the liquor cabinet.

 

Is this some sort of joke?

 

If not, it's ridiculous.

 

Simply put, with the possible exception of the middle-of-the-pack teams in men's basketball, the Southland was/is better IN EVERY SPORT than the Summit League.  Not even close, especially in women's sports and non-revenue sports.  Golf, tennis, track and field - ORU was not even competitive in these sports in the Southland, and they used to win them all the time in the Summit.

 

MAYBE volleyball and cross country is stronger in the Summit, but otherwise, no comparison.

 

Case in point:  ORU'S BASEBALL TEAM THAT FINISHED NINTH IN THE SOUTHLAND MIGHT HAVE WON THE SUMMIT LEAGUE.

 

Don't think for a minute that ORU's return to the Summit League was not in part inspired by the wish to once again compete for conference championships in all sports.  Was not about to happen any time soon in the Southland.

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At least in Basketball, the Summit was ranked the 17th best conference by Realtimerpi and the 20th best for Women,  The Southland was ranked number 27 for both men and women. The Massey's composite of 45 ranking systems had the Summit men's  basketball ranked 16th and the Southland 28th.  

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Was not trying to disparage the Summit League.  Just trying to establish that anyone who thinks ORU's frustration in the Southland was simply due to their own shortcomings, is not giving the Southland enought credit.  In almost every sport, it was a combination of BOTH factors:  ORU fielding less competitive teams than in their Summit League days, AND facing stronger competition day-in-and-day-out in every sport in the Southland.

 

As for the basketball RPI disparity between the two leagues, that is an anomaly caused by the number of schools in the respective leagues, as opposed to the quality of play (particularly at the top) in either conference.  Specifically, the large number of bottom-feeders in the Southland pulled down their league RPI, while the small total number of schools in the Summit allowed the better RPI's of its top teams to prop up the league RPI as a whole. 

 

After closely following both leagues all season long, here's how I would rank their top men's basketball teams from 2013-2014, using the "eye test" instead of RPI:

 

1.  Stephen F. Austin (Southland)

2.  North Dakota State (Summit)

3.  Fort Wayne (Summit)

4.  Texas A&M - Corpus Christi (Southland)

5.  Sam Houston State (Southland)

6.  South Dakota State (Summit)

7.  Northwestern State (Southland)

8.  Denver (Summit) 

9.  Oral Roberts (Southland)

10. Incarnate Word (Southland)

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I actually believe Southland officials thought they WERE trying to add some emphasis on basketball in the league. And they did that by adding ORU and a bunch of basketball playing transitionals. With membership movement in both leagues, there isnt the major difference in travel that was perceived before the move.

Also, wasn't the sample size too small to judge whether the move could have been a success? ORU was going to be rebuilding in basketball in either league, and baseball was moving into the post-Walton era.

I grew up in Southland country (next door to Beaumont), but am ok with saying that I was wrong and prefer the move back to the Summit. No one down there is going to start caring about basketball any time soon. Let's take the automatic bid in baseball and move on.

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Here's my take, FWIW:

 

1.  I was glad ORU went to the Southland when it did.  The Summit appeared to be on the brink of extinction, with Oakland looking to bolt, UMKC and Southern Utah already headed out the door, and The Dakota States flirting with The Valley and other mid-major leagues.  The league was contemplating adding the likes of Kentucky State, Mankato State, and SIU-Edwardsville to survive.  Moving to a more-stable league in Texas and Louisiana just seemed to make sense at the time.  That is, until the Southland did a D-II dip of their own by adding Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, and New Orleans.

 

2.  Upon arrival, I was surprised at the level of athleticism in ALL sports in the Southland.  No one nationally realizes that they play a good brand of basketball down there, with particularly tough guard play.  The problem is that most (all?) of the schools play regional non-conference games, (which are ignored by the local media in those football-crazy states at that time of year), then spend January and February beating each other up in conference play, resulting in ravaged RPI's and poor NCAA seeds.  And in the spring sports such as baseball, tennis, golf, and track, Southland schools have the advantage of signing tough Southern kids who, thanks to the climate,  have played their respective sports year-round since they were tykes.

 

3.  I was also stunned to learn that, despite previous assertions, the travel distances in the Southland were similar to those in the Summit.  In many cases, the travel was actually more arduous due to bussing so far to many sites without major airports nearby.  Case in point:  Tulsa is only 50 miles closer to Katy, TX (home of the Southland basketball tournament) than it is to Sioux Falls, SD (where the Summit League basketball tournament is entrenched).  The supposed cost savings for travel by switching from the Summit to the Southland was a myth.  The only travel benefit was avoiding hazardous weather conditions during the winter sports, but that was about it.

 

4.  I was impressed that the Summit League was able to land Denver while shoring up the relationship with The Dakota States (adding the University of South Dakota helped in that regard).  It didn't hurt that the last two years the league had quality teams at the top in their marquee sport (men's basketball) to draw national attention.  Omaha and South Dakota have also proven they are up to the task in building quality programs (but frankly, the jury is still out on IUPUI - they have slipped).

 

5.  I do not blame ORU for going back to the Summit.  Tom Douple made ORU a sweetheart of a deal to return, and it just makes more sense from a competitive standpoint, especially in the spring sports where ORU was overwhelmed in the Southland.

 

6.  Given all the factors mentioned, I don't have a problem with ORU returning to the Summit.  Am I glad?  Not particularly, but not because I have any animosity toward the Summit - I will enjoy renewing the old rivalries, and I expect ORU will become instantly competitive again in several sports.  I just would have liked to see how ORU might have fared over time in the Southland with better teams on the court/field.  The question, though, was whether ORU was going to be able to recruit the kind of athletes necessary to compete in the Southland if the Golden Eagles kept performing so poorly in conference play.  It's probably for the best that the switch was made, if for no other reason than to stop the bleeding from Southland play.

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I agree with most of the thoughts from Maniac Alum and Old Titan.  When ORU was considering moving to the Southland, there was a long thread dealing with the perceived cost savings from travel in the Southland.  I knew at the time that the travel cost savings would be negligible.  

Definitely the Southland does not get the respect they deserve for the level of play that they demonstrate in several sports.  There are a lot of athletes in the Southland, but the coaching may not be up to snuff at some of the schools to be able to fully take advantage of that athleticism.  When they are able to combine their athleticism with good coaching, you get a team like Northwestern State, that is a threat to win a game or two in the NCAA tournament.  Steven F. Austin didn't have the athleticism of NW State, but they had superb coaching, and I liken them to NDSU which has also maximized the talent of their roster through great coaching.

 

For the most part, I see the Summit League and the Southland as comparable in most sports.  Recently, the Summit was stronger in men's basketball because they shed some RPI drag teams while the Southland added several RPI drag teams to the conference.  However, any argument that the Summit would be comparable to the Southland in baseball is a complete joke.  The Summit may be improving in baseball, but the Southland is light years ahead in the quality of baseball play from top to bottom.

 

The Southland's problem seems to be that even though they have talent in several sports, they seem to choke when they play the "big boys."  I have no idea how the Southland baseball teams didn't have a lot more wins against big time baseball programs.  They had some, but not as many as they should have for the quality of play league-wide.

 

We may be surprised when we return to the Summit that the quality of play may also have improved in the Summit as well, and with the exception of baseball, it may be more of a challenge to remain in the Top 3 of most of the sports as we had done fairly consistently in the past.

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No question, the Southland is stronger in baseball. The longer winters here limit preparation time as well as the amount of experience young people get growing up. However, SDSU should become significantly stronger over the next few years.  We are completing an indoor practice facility for all outside sports making it possible for the baseball team to practice before the start of the season as well as being a recruiting tool.  It is a $35,000,000 facility, and said to be the largest of its  type in the NCAA.  The Jacks have their first two players ever playing in the majors, pitchers Thielbar and Trenin. In addition, Omaha has a strong baseball program, a tradition probably partly related to the fact that Omaha is host to the College World Series.    Omaha has won the regular season title the last two years but won't be eligible for post season for another year or two.  So you will see an improved level of competition, i believe.

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