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False prophets or Men of God?


oruvoice

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I don't see Albert Mohler accepting the Mormons; his statements are pretty explicit and distinct in that regards. He is addressing the rapidly disentegrating culture that we share.

 

I think there is a balance to be struck in regards to Christians and their involvement in the political arena. Our country's salvation is found only in bending our collective knee to the Lordship of Christ. Nothing else. And as Voice says above, the church of Christ has been derelict in confronting sin. And that should begin in the church. (I Peter 4:17). We should not be surprised that sinners sin - that is who they are. But sin needs to be addressed in the church among Believers.

 

But to say we should not stand against the tide of sin in our culture and consequently not engage the society politically strikes me as a bit questionable. Laws are basically an instrument of morality. The state uses its coercive power to regulate morality in all manner of items. Therefore, morality (or immorality) can be legislated. But only to the extent that the society/culture demands it.

 

Christ and the Apostles were not killed because of what they did - but because of what said and stood for. Ultimately the early Christians were political martyrs becasue they would not pledge their allegiance to the state/Caesar.

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Someone's morality will be legislated so obviously Christians should be engaged in both the culture and politics to as significant a degree as possible in order to positively affect who's morality ends up being legislated.  The problem that has led to the cultural and moral decline is that the Church has NOT been engaged enough in a relevant way and has instead been either silent, incoherent (speaking Christianese), not unified in their message, or out of touch way too often.

 

Who says that standing together and pushing back against an ever secularized culture in a logical and relevant way wouldn't influence others to come to Christ.  I don't see anything in Mohler's comments that compromise his Christian beliefs or in any way legitimize Mormon doctrine.  However, finding agreement in the need to stand up for morality makes a lot of sense.

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Richard Land's successor wants the SBC to disengage from the culture war. 

 

Evangelical Leader Preaches Pullback From Politics, Culture Wars

from the WSJ...LINK

 

(excerpt)

Since the birth of the Christian-conservative political movement in the late 1970s, no evangelical group has delivered more punch in America's culture wars than the Southern Baptist Convention and its nearly 16 million members. The country's largest Protestant denomination pushed to end abortion, open up prayer in public schools and boycott Walt Disney Co. over films deemed antifamily. Its ranks included many of the biggest names on the Christian right, including Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

 

Today, after more than three decades of activism, many in the religious right are stepping back from the front lines. Mr. Moore, a 42-year-old political independent and theologian who heads the convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, says it is time to tone down the rhetoric and pull back from the political fray, given what he calls a "visceral recoil" among younger evangelicals to the culture wars.

 

"We are involved in the political process, but we must always be wary of being co-opted by it," Mr. Moore said in an interview in his Washington office, a short walk from Congress. "Christianity thrives when it is clearest about what distinguishes it from the outside culture."

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Our former president, Dr. Mark Rutland speaks to the topic of this thread, about MacArthur's cessationist belief system,

 

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41499-john-macarthur-cessation-theology-and-trainspotting-for-cave-dwellers

 

Rutland says,

 

"The problem is the Bible never says the gifts would stop this side of heaven. That is the crux. Show me in the Bible. That is the bottom line."

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Ok, so I'm not crazy.

 

Here is another article by Eddie Hyatt that describes MacArthur's book & statements as " ...not out to bring correction to a sector of Christianity with which he disagrees; his goal is to destroy a movement he considers false, heretical and dangerous." 

 

Hyatt states, "For example, Oral Roberts was not a Christian brother with whom he had profound differences but a heretic who did much damage to the body of Christ—“the first of the fraudulent healers to capture TV, paving the way for the parade of spiritual swindlers who have come after him,†he wrote."

 

I think this Hyatt does a better job of acknowledging the errors of several in the Charismatic movement, but also communicates clearly the error of cessationist theology. Good read: http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41514-the-strange-fire-of-john-macarthur

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From the Rutland Article:

"Get out of the cave where you and your cave-dwelling friends clap each other on the back and congratulate yourselves that you can see charlatans for what they are. Open your eyes to men like Dr. Paul Walker, Dr. Jack Hayford, Tommy Barnett and Dr. Doug Beacham. There is a big world outside—just outside the mouth of your tiny and dark cavern. Be brave. Go on, be brave. Step out into the light and just see what is out there."

Strong words.

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Our former president, Dr. Mark Rutland speaks to the topic of this thread, about MacArthur's cessationist belief system,

 

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41499-john-macarthur-cessation-theology-and-trainspotting-for-cave-dwellers

 

Rutland says,

 

"The problem is the Bible never says the gifts would stop this side of heaven. That is the crux. Show me in the Bible. That is the bottom line."

 

The bible does not explicitly state that. You are correct.

 

However, if the gifts are in operation in the same way they were during the time of the Apostles, shouldn't we be writing down the prophecies of today and adding them to the Scripture? If God is speaking the same way today, why aren't we adding these to the canon of Scripture? Much like the book of Mormon was God revealing himself to Joseph Smith or the Apocrypha in the Catholic Church, right?

 

Let me add a footnote to this...I believe God can and does use the gifts of the Spirit today. Thus, I wouldn't be a classic cessationist. However, I would say that over 95% of what goes on is falsifications of those gifts. For example...the notion that EVERY believer should speak in tongues and is to SEEK out the ability to speak in tongues, is blatantly unbiblical. 1 Corinthians 12 is VERY clear on this...

 

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

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As a non tongue talker, by pet peeve with ORU (and in a lot of churches) is the encouragement of corporate praying in tongues during services or tongues from the pulpit.  It seems pretty clear in a church setting, Paul said tongues should not happen without an interpretation because it does not edify the body without it and it confuses the non-beleiver.

 

I can't say what percentage is false, but for all Paul's issues with the church at Corinth he does tell them to "earnestly desire spiritual gifts."  A few verses down he tells them "I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy."

 

Near as I can tell, Corinth (like a lot of modern churches) lacked maturity and order when using/operating in the gifts of the Spirit.

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The bible does not explicitly state that. You are correct.

 

However, if the gifts are in operation in the same way they were during the time of the Apostles, shouldn't we be writing down the prophecies of today and adding them to the Scripture? If God is speaking the same way today, why aren't we adding these to the canon of Scripture? Much like the book of Mormon was God revealing himself to Joseph Smith or the Apocrypha in the Catholic Church, right?

 

Let me add a footnote to this...I believe God can and does use the gifts of the Spirit today. Thus, I wouldn't be a classic cessationist. However, I would say that over 95% of what goes on is falsifications of those gifts. For example...the notion that EVERY believer should speak in tongues and is to SEEK out the ability to speak in tongues, is blatantly unbiblical. 1 Corinthians 12 is VERY clear on this...

 

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

You all at ORU and Tulsa live in pentecostal/charismatic heaven. My problem in 26 years of ministry as a pastor, chaplain in a psychiatric hospital and campus minister at two public universities is not that people talk about these gifts, especially tongues but that it is rarely talked about at all.  In all these years I have had not more than 10 people bring up the topic.  So it isn't that we talk about it a lot as some say but that its hardly discussed. I wish we would talk about the topic. I mean, it is in the Bible. I can bring up the idea but it just ends there. I've given sermons about the gifts but little is said later. Most people aren't interested.  We don't watch TBN, GEB or all those other programs. The people I'm with are more interested in talking about the issues with the unfortunate in society, forgiveness/unforgiveness, social justice and money problems.

 

It's funny about fundamentalists like MacArthur because they will talk one way and then talk out of the other side of their mouth. In high school, when I wanted to attend ORU my father talked to a fundamentalist minister we knew. My father told him his son was thinking of going to ORU. My dad liked the fellow and wanted to hear what he would say. Rev. Henry told him,

 

"If my son wanted to go to ORU, I would be proud of him!"

 

Isn't it funny that a hard core MacArthurite fundamentalist preacher helped persuade my father that it was ok for his son to go to ORU?

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As a non tongue talker, by pet peeve with ORU (and in a lot of churches) is the encouragement of corporate praying in tongues during services or tongues from the pulpit.  It seems pretty clear in a church setting, Paul said tongues should not happen without an interpretation because it does not edify the body without it and it confuses the non-beleiver.

 

I can't say what percentage is false, but for all Paul's issues with the church at Corinth he does tell them to "earnestly desire spiritual gifts."  A few verses down he tells them "I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy."

 

Near as I can tell, Corinth (like a lot of modern churches) lacked maturity and order when using/operating in the gifts of the Spirit.

I've heard it put the other way about Corinth--they had problems but they were a more gifted church than the others.  More receptive to the gifts of Holy Spirit.  In many ways, the Corinthian church and city reminds me of the United States of America. To think that they were the worst church in the New Testament (that's what one fundamentalist minister told me) is unrealistic. 

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It's strange to me that Rutland makes his appeal that God is mostly doing works overseas. "Come to Africa..." It seems that God's work should be evident everywhere.

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It's strange to me that Rutland makes his appeal that God is mostly doing works overseas. "Come to Africa..." It seems that God's work should be evident everywhere.

 

Excellent point.

 

We have millions of Spirit filled believers and churches in the U.S., yet it seems like the Church in our nation has been conformed to the culture, and not the other way around...

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I've heard it put the other way about Corinth--they had problems but they were a more gifted church than the others.  More receptive to the gifts of Holy Spirit.  In many ways, the Corinthian church and city reminds me of the United States of America. To think that they were the worst church in the New Testament (that's what one fundamentalist minister told me) is unrealistic. 

 

I think you (we/many churches today) are missing the point. Whether you have certain gifts or not, we should seek love and edification of others (1 Cor. 13). Isn't that the whole point of 1 Cor. 12-14?

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Excellent point.

 

We have millions of Spirit filled believers and churches in the U.S., yet it seems like the Church in our nation has been conformed to the culture, and not the other way around...

yes oruvoice, you have to wonder about what's happened to faith in the good old USA.  We are a nation of extremists in every way so that we can get attention. Partisans for partisan's sake. Fifteen minutes of fame is more important than lifelong faithfulness to the Lord.

 

Whether it's MacArthur painting all Pentecostals with a broad brush as the people he mentions in his book or others like John. Using extreme examples one can smear any large group. For instance, MacArthur is a Baptist and fundamentalist Calvinist. If one searched out among the millions who adhere to that mix of Protestantism, one could pick out The Westborough Baptist Church in Kansas, and its pastor Fred Philips. These folks picket soldiers’ funerals on the bizarre notion that their deaths express the wrath of God on our nation for accepting homosexuality. They are self-described as Baptist and Calvinist, so one could throw in some innuendo to suggest John MacArthur is “like them†in his theology,

 

I doubt if MacArthur and others like him would appreciate being associated with those folks as he does with others.

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yes oruvoice, you have to wonder about what's happened to faith in the good old USA.  We are a nation of extremists in every way so that we can get attention. Partisans for partisan's sake. Fifteen minutes of fame is more important than lifelong faithfulness to the Lord.

 

Whether it's MacArthur painting all Pentecostals with a broad brush as the people he mentions in his book or others like John. Using extreme examples one can smear any large group. For instance, MacArthur is a Baptist and fundamentalist Calvinist. If one searched out among the millions who adhere to that mix of Protestantism, one could pick out The Westborough Baptist Church in Kansas, and its pastor Fred Philips. These folks picket soldiers’ funerals on the bizarre notion that their deaths express the wrath of God on our nation for accepting homosexuality. They are self-described as Baptist and Calvinist, so one could throw in some innuendo to suggest John MacArthur is “like them†in his theology,

 

I doubt if MacArthur and others like him would appreciate being associated with those folks as he does with others.

 

I have read much of MacArthur's writings on charismatics/pentecostals and his commentary on 1-Corithians, and I didn't come away with the feeling that he was trying to maliciously smear. In fact, I re-read Charismatic Chaos recently and I thought he went out of his way to attempt to say that 'not all in the movement are like this'. And, was gracious and thankful for charismatic pastors that were faithful to Scripture.

 

Let me also add that I do NOT agree with 100% of what MacArthur teaches, as with ANY pastor/teacher. That said, whether I agree with him on an issue or not, I do like the fact that he constantly affirms that Scripture is the ultimate test of Truth.

 

A final note on MacArthur...his dealings with the charismatic movement is such a small part of his ministry and teachings. His new testament commentaries are fantastic and his series of books "The Gospel According to Jesus", "The Gospel according to the Apostles", are phenomenal, in my opinion.

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I have read much of MacArthur's writings on charismatics/pentecostals and his commentary on 1-Corithians, and I didn't come away with the feeling that he was trying to maliciously smear. In fact, I re-read Charismatic Chaos recently and I thought he went out of his way to attempt to say that 'not all in the movement are like this'. And, was gracious and thankful for charismatic pastors that were faithful to Scripture.

 

Let me also add that I do NOT agree with 100% of what MacArthur teaches, as with ANY pastor/teacher. That said, whether I agree with him on an issue or not, I do like the fact that he constantly affirms that Scripture is the ultimate test of Truth.

 

A final note on MacArthur...his dealings with the charismatic movement is such a small part of his ministry and teachings. His new testament commentaries are fantastic and his series of books "The Gospel According to Jesus", "The Gospel according to the Apostles", are phenomenal, in my opinion.

I've heard MacArthur for years on the radio. Had several conversations with church members who love his self-confident style of speaking on the radio. He's attacked anyone who is well-known or famous claiming he's contending for the faith (Jude 3).

 

Bill Hybels and Rick Warren-their seeker sensitive methods, using skits and plays in worship

Billy Graham and Robert Schuller-are universalists, MacArthur says Graham doesn't believe in salvation in Christ for all people in world

Joel Osteen-a religion paganist

Roman Catholic are heretics

psychology is useless-don't go to a psychiatrist-I could get in trouble for saying that to a parishioner

Charles Swindoll tells too many stories, not expository enough

 

the list goes on and on...women, divorced people, etc.,

 

I wish he would preach the word and leave people and their names out of it. You can find most of what I just wrote on youtube or gty.org

 

Almost all of these comments I've heard on his radio program.

 

Growing up, I knew a fundamentalist fellow who claimed that he had the "ministry of correction" he used to tell me.  Criticized everyone except himself. I never saw that ministry in 1 Cor. 12-14.

 

As you wrote oruvoice,

 

Whether you have certain gifts or not, we should seek love and edification of others (1 Cor. 13). Isn't that the whole point of 1 Cor. 12-14?

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"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

 

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."

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I've heard MacArthur for years on the radio. Had several conversations with church members who love his self-confident style of speaking on the radio. He's attacked anyone who is well-known or famous claiming he's contending for the faith (Jude 3).

 

Bill Hybels and Rick Warren-their seeker sensitive methods, using skits and plays in worship

Billy Graham and Robert Schuller-are universalists, MacArthur says Graham doesn't believe in salvation in Christ for all people in world

Joel Osteen-a religion paganist

Roman Catholic are heretics

psychology is useless-don't go to a psychiatrist-I could get in trouble for saying that to a parishioner

Charles Swindoll tells too many stories, not expository enough

 

the list goes on and on...women, divorced people, etc.,

 

I wish he would preach the word and leave people and their names out of it. You can find most of what I just wrote on youtube or gty.org

 

Almost all of these comments I've heard on his radio program.

 

Growing up, I knew a fundamentalist fellow who claimed that he had the "ministry of correction" he used to tell me.  Criticized everyone except himself. I never saw that ministry in 1 Cor. 12-14.

 

As you wrote oruvoice,

 

Whether you have certain gifts or not, we should seek love and edification of others (1 Cor. 13). Isn't that the whole point of 1 Cor. 12-14?

 

Cletus...Do you believe that we shouldn't call out (by name) those that teach major heresies in Universalism, Catholicism, and Word Faith?

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