False prophets or Men of God?

[oruvoice]

http://www.christianpost.com/news/preachers-of-la-trailer-teases-with-lavish-dramatic-lifestyles-of-six-mega-pastors-99070/

 

My take is CLEARLY false prophets. Interested to hear other perspectives...

 

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

 

[ORUalum]

sadly, for all the good that OR did this is also part of his legacy.  i believe he was sincere when he stumbled on 3 John 2 as a struggling, poor preacher.  but somewhere along the way the teaching got out of balance and then others have taken it much further.  so these guys are just extensions of the prosperity preachers of the 80's and 90's like John Avanzini, Mike Murdock, Bob Harrison, etc.

[oruvoice]

sadly, for all the good that OR did this is also part of his legacy.  i believe he was sincere when he stumbled on 3 John 2 as a struggling, poor preacher.  but somewhere along the way the teaching got out of balance and then others have taken it much further.  so these guys are just extensions of the prosperity preachers of the 80's and 90's like John Avanzini, Mike Murdock, Bob Harrison, etc.

 

The Health & Wealth gospel really started with Kenneth Hagin. Most "prosperity gospel" teachers can be linked to him or someone he discipled. There is a book entitled "A Different Gospel", authored by D.R. McConnell (I think that's his name), that documents long sections of some of Hagin's writings were directly plaigarized from a guy named E.W. Kenyon.

 

Which, in and of itself is bad, but what is worse is that Kenyon got much of his teachings from Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy). This whole notion that the spiritual world can be manipulated by your words (name it and claim it), is actually rooted in Christian Science not true biblical Christianity. Now it seems, this new generation of preachers has taken it to even further extremes.

 

The prosperity preachers have subverted the true faith. They teach that God is here to serve man, as opposed to man being created to serve God. There is a book that I recommend to anyone interested. It is entitled "Christianity in Crisis", written by Hank Hannegraff. He expounds on this much more clearly that I can articulate.

[ORUTerry]

I remember my initial reaction when someone explained the 'name it, claim it' philosophy to me - I said that it was witchcraft. They are basically saying incantations to get what they want. The teaching is far from the gospel of Christ and it is heresy. The gospel is about 'who' (Christ) - not 'what'. I have never understood how they can justify their 'theology' in light of Jesus' clear teaching.

[ORUalum]

i'd make a diferentiation between "health/wealth" teaching and the "word of faith" movement.  the distinctives of the word of faith are things like "faith is a force", "your words have power", "you are a little god" and the belief that it was not finished on the cross, but that Jesus actually went to hell and battled satan for 3 days.

 

McConnell's book on the "Word of Faith" was based on his thesis at ORU that built on the research of one of his theology profs at ORU.  Hanagraff then borrowed their reaseach and added lots of quotes from Copeland, Meyer, and Hinn.

 

i think the confusion is that most of the Hagin types also teach that God wants you wealthy and healthy and one can speak it in to exsistance with their words..

 

although Oral was friends with and shared a pulpit with the Word of Faith crowd he did not preach those WOF distinctives listed above. 

 

John MacArthur's obituary of OR is much harsher than i would be, but it does a better job of explaining his role in the modern prosperity message.

 

Edit:

found MacArthur's article: LINK

[oruvoice]

I remember my initial reaction when someone explained the 'name it, claim it' philosophy to me - I said that it was witchcraft. They are basically saying incantations to get what they want. The teaching is far from the gospel of Christ and it is heresy. The gospel is about 'who' (Christ) - not 'what'. I have never understood how they can justify their 'theology' in light of Jesus' clear teaching.

 

Yet, the overwhleming majority of Christian TV is someone teaching some variation of this 'doctrine'...

[oruvoice]

i'd make a diferentiation between "health/wealth" teaching and the "word of faith" movement.  the distinctives of the word of faith are things like "faith is a force", "your words have power", "you are a little god" and the belief that it was not finished on the cross, but that Jesus actually went to hell and battled satan for 3 days.

 

McConnell's book on the "Word of Faith" was based on his thesis at ORU that built on the research of one of his theology profs at ORU.  Hanagraff then borrowed their reaseach and added lots of quotes from Copeland, Meyer, and Hinn.

 

i think the confusion is that most of the Hagin types also teach that God wants you wealthy and healthy and one can speak it in to exsistance with their words..

 

although Oral was friends with and shared a pulpit with the Word of Faith crowd he did not preach those WOF distinctives listed above. 

 

John MacArthur's obituary of OR is much harsher than i would be, but it does a better job of explaining his role in the modern prosperity message.

 

Edit:

found MacArthur's article: LINK

 

Wow. MacArthur's article is pretty harsh. Interesting.

 

Alum...How do you feel about MacArthur's teachings on tongues, miracles, and other "pentecostal" doctrines?

[ORUalum]

Wow. MacArthur's article is pretty harsh. Interesting.

 

Alum...How do you feel about MacArthur's teachings on tongues, miracles, and other "pentecostal" doctrines?

i really wonder sometimes if he just flat out hates charismatics/pentecostals. but after sitting through 4 years of chapels with RR, LR and their sideshow charismanic flavors of the month guest speakers i saw that we give him plenty of ammunition.

 

so i disagree with him on the gifts of the spirit and on calvanism.  i do like to listen to expository preachers like MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, etc.  i've learned a lot about putting the scripture in it's proper context.  i've also learned a lot about the early chruch fathers, church history, and the the reformers from listening to those guys.

 

so many non-denominational preachers teach shallow topical sermons in my humble opinion.  i guess the Calvary Chapel movement would be an exception to that.

[theeagleman5]

TheEagleman attends Calvary Chapel of Philadelphia and can confirm that the Calvary Chapel IS an exception to shallow topical sermons taught by preachers like Joel Osteen( an ORU guy).....I read the article by MacArthur and sadly cannot dispute most of his opinions and facts.....you know that I am a proud ORU grad....but TheEagleman cannot be proud of the seed faith message which was at the forefront of the teaching of Oral and Richard Roberts....It is completely out of step with the Bible and Jesus' teachings.....I would have to say that while none of us are without fault....I would not want to have to stand before Almighty God and have to answer for leading so many astray.....as an ORU alum....this is one of the things that I struggle with the most....such an interesting post here....glad we can discuss openly....I know that many on this board loved OR.....I respected the man myself an thought highly of him as a student.....but as I get older and somewhat wiser.....I must admit serious Biblical error in his teachings.....he was wrong as is Copeland, Hagin, Hinn and all others who teach that prosperity/WOF message.....

[ORU GRAD]

So God wants us to be poor so we can not effect the nations with the Gospel? Really!

[theeagleman5]

TheEagleman Never said that God wants Christians to be poor....but let's face it....OR perverted scripture with regards to seed faith.....we can't expect to be blessed 10 fold financially just because we give to a ministry or Godly cause...sure we can expect some blessing but not necessarily with regards to money or possessions.....False prophet or Man of God?....can't say that OR was a false prophet but regarding his doctrine of seed faith he was clearly in error....TheEagleman realizes you can find 20 people on this board and get 20 different opinions on this topic.....and I for one really don't know what was in Oral's heart when he come up with his doctrines.....he will only have to answer to the Lord......I pray it goes well for him...... 

[Dr. Cornelius]

The Democratization of American Christianity by Nathan Hatch is an interesting book that explores several of the faith traditions that came out of the Second Great Awakening. The roots of what would eventually become pentecostal / charismatic movements go back to the crisis of authority sweeping through culture just after the forming of the nation.

[ORUJason]

Definitely an interesting discussion.  I think it is easy to stereotype denominations or various "movements" such as word of faith and take a statement or action from one specific minister and attach that belief/approach to all the other ministers/followers of that movement.  However, that is usually inaccurate.  Much like someone would hear something one of these LA preachers said and assume that anyone who goes to ORU feels the same way.

 

While there are areas of disagreement in the area of prosperity, I suspect you would find that you would agree with probably 90+% of the things those ministers teach, so you have to be careful when criticizing a specific issue and saying "That isn't in the Bible."  There is definite scriptural backing for many of the Kenneth Hagin based teachings, there is just a disagreement about how you interpret and apply those scriptures.

 

The main issue with prosperity teaching IMHO is in the "give to get" mentality and in the high level of focus on material things vs. instead focusing on your relationship with God.  Also at times there may be a scripture that applied to a specific Biblical incidence such as the "100-fold return" but that doesn't mean that every time you give to God you should expect to get 100 times what you gave back.

 

At the same time, many people will "throw the baby out with the bath water" in this regard.  There are 100s of scriptures in the Bible related to God's intention to bless His children and many of them are conditional promises.  Many preachers will quote the promise without mentioning the condition that should be met in order to "gain" that blessing.

 

I believe Matthew 6:33 is a great example of where God expects our focus to be.  Seek FIRST His Kingdom and His Righteousness, and THEN all those other things will be added to you.  Don't seek first the things and ignore God's Kingdom and living a life of righteousness. 

[theeagleman5]

Well said, sir....Good thoughts, Jason!.....+100....

[ron]

Yes. Well said ORUJason.

[oruvoice]

So God wants us to be poor so we can not effect the nations with the Gospel? Really!

 

I think the point is that God wants us to serve Him. Using our talents (whether rich or poor) for His glory.

 

To me, watching a lot of Christian TV recently, that 95% of what I hear is teaching on how to gain earthly blessings (health & wealth).Which, to me, seems to run COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of what Scripture teaches. This show (LA Pastors) being a prime example.

 

I don't see anything wrong with working hard and reaping material blessings. That's not the point. The point is making that the main focus of your life/ministry seems to be totally out of whack. And, it SEEMS to me that so much I see on Christian TV has more in common with a get rich quick scheme, than being sound biblical doctrine. 

[oruvoice]

i really wonder sometimes if he just flat out hates charismatics/pentecostals. but after sitting through 4 years of chapels with RR, LR and their sideshow charismanic flavors of the month guest speakers i saw that we give him plenty of ammunition.

 

so i disagree with him on the gifts of the spirit and on calvanism.  i do like to listen to expository preachers like MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, etc.  i've learned a lot about putting the scripture in it's proper context.  i've also learned a lot about the early chruch fathers, church history, and the the reformers from listening to those guys.

 

so many non-denominational preachers teach shallow topical sermons in my humble opinion.  i guess the Calvary Chapel movement would be an exception to that.

 

Haven't heard of Piper. But, I must be honest, I thoroughly enjoy listening to/reading MacArthur & Sproul. Listening to those guys, I feel like I am actually being FED the Word.

[ORU GRAD]

^{Remember, there is a  ditch  on both sides of the road.  Make sure you stay with context and balance. That should put you on sound footing. In any doctrinal stance you find the pendulum swings to the far right or left before finding the right direction.  Stay on track and you won't get in the ditch.}