ORUalum Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 i've seen this guy written up a few times in alumni publications and referenced as an un-credentialed crackpot historian in the news, but never heard him speak. interesting debate w/jon stewart. LINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeagleman5 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Good stuff....TheEagleman was in the same graduating class as David Barton....didn't know him well but had a few classes with him and remember he was kind of a quiet kid.....he more than held his own with Jon Stewart who is a very intelligent guy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 That was an OUTSTANDING interview! Stewart (who i never watch, so I don't really know how he usually conducts his interviews) allowed David Barton to express himself, allowed the exchange of ideas, for David to correct misconceptions, and in the end not appear as an "uncredentialed crackpot", but as an educated and intelligent person approaching the American experience from an entirely different direction than Stewart. The interesting thing was that whoever had prepared Stewart's notes was decidedly left-leaning, and was out to discredit Barton - at least from a secular perspective. I thought that Stewart's responses to Barton's corrections were very interesting, too - it was like he was thinking, this guy's not the crackpot I was expecting. From a different perspective, but definitely not a crackpot! I thought David did a nice job, given the forum, of showing how far afield we've come from "original intent". I've followed David Barton for many years. He's produced some excellent material. He's become a bit of a celebrity now - I see him on TV pretty regularly - but I was getting his newsletters many years before his current fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUalum Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 trying to turn Jefferson into an orthodox christian was a bit too much even for conservative scholars. i'm guessing we've seen the last of Barton featured in the Alumni magazine. score one for Jon Stewart and those saying Barton was guilty of twisting of facts and poor scholarship. it sounds like Thomas Nelson may want to fire the editor and fact checkers that failed to do their jobs prior to publishing his latest book. Publisher Pulls David Barton's Book on Jefferson -- Christian Post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUTerry Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Barton is an entrepeneur - he markets his products to the conservative/Christian market. I have never considered him a historian. More a collector of facts. As a result, he is probably reaches a bit in his interpretations and misses some items in his research or citations. As in most things, there is probably more to this than just what is in the story. He was shoddy in his interpretation and documentation - but his detractors may also be either hostile to his message or envious of his success/noteriety. In case you haven't noticed, we are in a real culture war and there are those who want to totally expunge Christ and any hint of the gospel from the market square. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUTerry Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I don't know what to make of this controversy. The stories I read and the critics that are quoted make generalized statements but I did not see one specific charge. Maybe I missed it. They certainly disagree with Barton on interpretation (and I probably do too) but that is different than what they accuse him of. And they seek (acomplished?) to stop publishment of his book. It looks to be an academic tussle and Barton is a bit sloppy with his citations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeagleman5 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Oops....on 2nd thought....TheEagleman never liked that Barton kid when I attended ORU with him back in the 70's..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbl78 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 David Barton was at ORU during the first two years that I was, and I agree with Eagleman, that he was a quiet, well-liked student. I have also read some of his materials and heard him speak. I found his books and lectures to be thoughtful and well-reasoned. This is in direct contrast to the tripe that comes out of the "leading academic universities" of this country and is circulated in such publications as The University of Chicago Magazine which arrives monthly in my mailbox. Barton's response to the critics of his Jefferson Book is here: http://www.wallbuild...s.asp?id=118208 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeagleman5 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Yeah...David Barton was a good guy back in the 70's at ORU and seems like a very intelligent fellow....his stuff is well researched....others will always have differing opinons.....hey....it sells books..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogus Smith Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 This was Wallbuilders' (David's) response yesterday to the feud with Thomas Nelson (at least his side of the story). You can come to your own conclusions based on the information presented in the various posts here: David Barton & Thomas Nelson The announcement that Thomas Nelson has pulled The Jefferson Lies because it has "lost confidence" in the work has become national news. However, while Thomas Nelson may have “lost confidence†in the work, others have not and thus the book has already been picked up by a much larger national publisher and distributor. Even at the time Nelson dropped the work, they admitted that it was still selling very well. As is the case with all of our published items, we go above and beyond with original source documentation so that people can be thoroughly confident when they see the truth of history for themselves. We find it regrettable that Thomas Nelson never contacted us with even one specific area of concern before curtly notifying us they had dropped the work. Had they done so, we would have been happy to provide them with the thorough and extensive historical documentation for any question or issue they raised; they never asked. The Jefferson Lies has not been pulled from publication and it will continue to sell nationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cletus Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Thomas Jefferson isn't as great as David Barton makes him out to be in Jefferson Lies but the Founding Fathers aren't as bad as our schools now teach us. What a difference in 50 years can make! Just ask your parents what they learned about these same people. The truth is somewhere in between--balance--as I learned at ORU years ago. In the end, I'd rather have David Barton on my side than people like Cokie Roberts, Bill Maher and Sam Donaldson. Interesting how their political beliefs and use of words can twist the meaning of history. Tonight, my wife was reading Cokie Roberts book Founding Mothers and Cokie makes Jonathan Edwards to be a braggart, tyrant and brute to his own family! Oh, brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeagleman5 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Bill Maher?.......Ptoooooy!........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUalum Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Barton is an entrepeneur - he markets his products to the conservative/Christian market. I have never considered him a historian. More a collector of facts. As a result, he is probably reaches a bit in his interpretations and misses some items in his research or citations. From what I've read the last few days, I think you hit the nail on the head. It sounds like he downplays the role of the Enlightenment and overstates Christianity when explaining the Founders thought process. He is marketing his products to conservative Christians who want the founders to look and sound like modern day Evangelicals. As such, he may be guilty of shaping facts to make it appear that way while omitting the outright blasphemy that Jefferson and other founders wrote. Barton has already lined up another publisher and will be releasing a revised editon of his Jefferson book. Hopefully he took the criticism to heart and will produce a more intellectually honest history of our third president. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeagleman5 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Yeah....our 3rd President TJ was no saint.....how many kids did he father with his slaves?......sounds like the writer of our Declaration of Independence had a lot of time to kill in between those Continental Congress sessions..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 From what I've read the last few days, I think you hit the nail on the head. It sounds like he downplays the role of the Enlightenment and overstates Christianity when explaining the Founders thought process. He is marketing his products to conservative Christians who want the founders to look and sound like modern day Evangelicals. As such, he may be guilty of shaping facts to make it appear that way while omitting the outright blasphemy that Jefferson and other founders wrote. Barton has already lined up another publisher and will be releasing a revised editon of his Jefferson book. Hopefully he took the criticism to heart and will produce a more intellectually honest history of our third president. Very thoughtful analysis, alum, and well said. At the same time, I think Barton is responding to the present cultural, governmental and academic effort to remove any spiritual influence entirely from from the thoughts and intentions of our Founding Fathers. If Barton goes too far in making them out to be evangelicals by today's standards, many in our society today are trying to re-write history by presenting our Founding Fathers as barely more than godless, debauched miscreants. In reality, it wasn't till the early twentieth century that the effort to remove God entirely from our government and society began, and it's painful to see how successful that effort has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 The battle rages on. Here are a couple of links I came across. The first provides an interesting defense of Barton, and gives a little background on some of his critics. The writer is a bit of a firebrand himself, having a ministry opposing homosexuality which has gotten him considerable negative publicity. That said, his remarks regarding David Barton make sense: In Defense of David Barton The second is an interview of David Barton by Glenn Beck. I'm not a Beck fan, but in this interview he at least allows Barton to express himself and explain his positions. I think you will find them pretty convincing: David Barton responds to critics during interview with Glenn on GBTV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUalum Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 Thanks for the link to the interview with Beck. My take away is that Mr. Barton has a very broad view of what a Christian is and that is at the heart of the disagreement with his conservative Christian critics. To Barton, Jefferson can still be a Christian despite denying the deity of Jesus. Likewise, he can call a polytheist like Beck (who thinks he will one day become a god) a Christian because Beck says he believes in Jesus. The third clip is quite sad. How many Mormons will watch that clip and think their belief system is Christian and that Mr. Barton affirms their faith. I hope Barton will realize that unlike his historical theories, his theological theories have eternal implications. My cynical side wonders if the reason he does not confront Beck is the fact that Beck has been his biggest promoter and now his new publisher. **** Here is a good read on the Jefferson Bible that Beck and Barton discussed in one of the clips: Separating 'Diamonds' from the 'Dunghill' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeagleman5 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 +1 for ORUAlum.....it appears that you have hit the nail on the head......one cannot be a Christian while denying the deity of Christ.....Mormons are the classic example.....Thomas Jefferson appears to fit that mold as well.....as TheEagleman said before...it's all about selling books I guess......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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