Stl VU Fan Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 http://www.voy.com/31005/34742.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUBlue Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 With Albert Pujols winning the MVP more ouch for the cubbies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted November 16, 2005 Author Share Posted November 16, 2005 With Albert Pujols winning the MVP more ouch for the cubbies! My honest assessment is that Derek Lee should be the MVP, believe it or not. But, not by much. What is kind of difficult to stomach is that Andruw Jones was a CLOSE 2nd in the voting. He was not even in the top 10 in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUBlue Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 My honest assessment is that Derek Lee should be the MVP, believe it or not. Come on Stl VU Pujols has lead the cards to back to back 100 games win season. What the man has done in his first 5 seasons is simply the best baseball has seen! My assessement it shouldn't have been that close. cubbies win the World Series in 3010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 Come on Stl VU Pujols has lead the cards to back to back 100 games win season. What the man has done in his first 5 seasons is simply the best baseball has seen! My assessement it shouldn't have been that close. Between Albert and Andruw? Wholeheartedly agree. Between Albert and Derek? Wholeheartedly disagree. I don't believe that's the proper way to assess MVP. Leadership is distinct from performance and is much less tangible in terms of translation into end results. How many games the Cardinals won is immaterial. It's not unrelated, of course, but it has little to do with Pujols' value. Sorry, but that's not what value means in my book. It is the goal, and value is A means to that end, but lady luck, mother nature, and a whole host of other unpredictable forces play a role as well. The only objective way to assess value in my book is to find some comprehensive way to represent a player's performance independent of how well his teammates do. For example, RBIs are important and do tend to APPROXIMATE (how closely is up for grabs) a player's value, but the problem is that all hitters are not EQUALLY blessed with runners on base in their respective aggregate of plate appearances. In a particular season, over 162 games, the number of RBI opportunities MIGHT even out for everyone, but there is certainly no guarantee of this, and there is no reason to think it will normally even come close to evening out. A similar argument can be posed for runs scored. Yeah, it's kind of the name of the game, but to put it simply, a player's runs scored number is laden with team context and not everyone has the same team context so it is a faulty comparison. THIS is why certain baseball analysts spend so much time coming up with a much more accurate representation of a player's value. The one I'm familiar with is Bill James' Runs Created formula, which is conceptually defined as: (A * B)/C, where A represents the player's success at getting on base, B represents the player's success at advancing additional bases, and C represents plate appearances (total opportunities). In it's simplest (and imprecise) form, this would be: (H + BB) * (TB) / (AB + BB) The actual formula is more complicated. A includes HBP and counts off for CS. B includes SB successes and counts off for GIDP, and of course c is actually plate appearances which includes HBP and SF. espn.com actually has this stat, and at season's end, #1 in Runs Created was Derek Lee (154). #2 was Albert Pujols (147) (I DID say it was close). There is also RC/27, sort of a measure of how many runs a lineup of 9 Derek Lees (or whomever) could be expected to score in a 9 inning game. On that one, Derek Lee is #1 (10.02) and Albert Pujols is #2 (9.45) - again close. In any case, in RC/27, Andruw Jones was #25 (6.56). In RC, he was #11 (112). NOT CLOSE Now, if you can objectively compare Pujols and Lee in terms of defense (they both play 1b, so that helps), and objectively figure out how to weight offense vs. defense so we can have a combined comparison, and it comes out that Pujols ends up the best, then I'll grant you your argument. But it's harder to rate guys defensively than offensively. As sloppy as it probably is, I figure (since I wouldn't begin to know how to accurately rate them) that both players have widely been recognized as good fielding 1b-men, so defense washes out, and all we need to do is compare offensive numbers. Speed might be another thing, but I don't remember hearing anyone describe either player as a lead-footed compared to the other. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy for Albert, and as a Cardinal fan and a Cubs hater, I'm ecstatic But objectively, I believe the most valuable player in the NL in 2005 was Derek Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUBlue Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 But objectively, I believe the most valuable player in the NL in 2005 was Derek Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 My opinion and this is last on this subject on MVP. Take Lee out of the cubs line up and they finish about where they ended up or worst. Take Pujols out of the cards line up and they finish 2nd or 3rd. Pujols show up everyday, plays hurt, and makes his teammates better. I do not see that in Lee. Not to mention this was Lee's career year and he still didn't win. We will agree to disagree. Cubs win the World Series in 3010! 1. Who are you going to replace Lee and Pujols with? You can't just take someone out of a lineup and say where either team will finish. 2. Lee showed up every day too. 3. Makes his teammates better? Measure that for me, will you please? 4. "This was Lee's career year and he still didn't win" - I don't even know what this means. It's hardly an argument on why he's not the MVP (because he didn't win the award?). What else was he supposed to win in order to earn the award? 5. At least we agree on your last statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUBlue Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 4. "This was Lee's career year and he still didn't win" - I don't even know what this means. It's hardly an argument on why he's not the MVP (because he didn't win the award?). What else was he supposed to win in order to earn the award? Okay one more opinion on his career year in stats. Thought you had already check his stats (2005 his best offensive year in avg, slg% & rbi's.) The Cubs finished 4th and under 500 so his stats really helped them. G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG 1997 San Diego 22 54 9 14 3 0 1 4 20 9 24 0 0 .365 .370 .259 1998 Florida 141 454 62 106 29 1 17 74 188 47 120 52 .318 .414 .233 1999 Florida 70 218 21 45 9 1 5 20 71 17 70 21 .263 .326 .206 2000 Florida 158 477 70 134 18 3 28 70 242 63 123 0 3 .368 .507 .281 2001 Florida 158 561 83 158 37 4 21 75 266 50 126 4 2 .346 .474 .282 2002 Florida 162 581 95 157 35 7 27 86 287 98 164 19 9 .378 .494 .270 2003 Florida 155 539 91 146 31 2 31 92 274 88 131 21 8 .379 .508 .271 2004 Cubs 161 605 90 168 39 1 32 98 305 68 128 12 5 .356 .504 .278 2005 Cubs 158 594 120 199 50 3 46 107 393 85 109 15 3 .418 .662 .335 Totals 1185 4083 641 1127 251 22 208 626 2046 525 995 78 33 .363 .501 .276 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 Okay one more opinion on his career year in stats. Thought you had already check his stats (2005 his best offensive year in avg, slg% & rbi's.) The Cubs finished 4th and under 500 so his stats really helped them. I could really not care less about his career stats, and his stats this year helped the Cubs tremendously. It is NOT his fault the Cubs couldn't use his tremendous performance to win the division He provided them more value - SLIGHTLY - than Albert did, but the Cubs squandered it. However, this is an INDIVIDUAL award, not a TEAM award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUBlue Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Ok, Albert has the award (case closed) We can debate Green & Oppland at the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl VU Fan Posted November 18, 2005 Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Ok, Albert has the award (case closed) We can debate Green & Oppland at the end of the season. Nah, I'll leave that to har2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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