Glory Days

[ORUTerry]

Have to agree with you about McClelland he was better than fans realized... the complete package. Gill was also good, but Tim had trouble creating his own shot like Tutt. And he got the yips during his senior year - would not take shots at the end of games. I think he missed Earl's passes out to him on the wing. McClelland made him look good - as he did with all his teammates. I spoke with a member of the squad last Spring and he said the best player on the team was Clifford Crenshaw. Interesting take. I still think it was Earl....

Walls was a rebounding machine and very intense/focused - but there is no way he could compete offensively with Green. Not in the same league. Really two different players so it is hard to compare.

[ORUBlue]

ahhhh! but neither team has made it to the big dance.

So both teams and players are even.

[ORob1]

I love it when Blue chimes in!

You should come out to play more often!

Rob

[ORU Eli]

Ditto. There's way too much valuable knowledge in that noggin for Blue to be so quiet most of the time. =)

[Guest Rob Marshall]

Terry, I agree. Caleb Green is a much more polished offensive player than Walls was, however Rocky would have played a guy like Green very tough and would have most likely posted a double double against him too.

Also agree with you on this ... Gill was arguably overall more effective as a junior on Bill's last ORU team than he was as a senior, and that can be attributed to a lot of things. Gill scored a lot of points each game on what seemed like fewer shots than what Tutt takes. Additionally, Tim got a lot of easy baskets on explosive dunks in transition that were created by his speed and athleticism which exceed Tutt's. The half-court continuity offense that Bill's teams ran wasn't designed for players to create their own shot but rather to create open looks for guys (like Gill and Crenshaw) to take and make high percentage shots.

Again don't get me wrong, I think Ken Tutt is a heckuva good college basketball player, and I'm excited to watch his final two seasons at ORU.

[ORUTerry]

I am a stat geek, so I went back and pulled the statistics for both Rocky Walls and Caleb Green - for their first two years. The numbers clearly speak for themselves:

Walls

Games FG/ FGA FT/FTA Rebs Pts ppg rpg

27 80/ 160 50.0% 57/92 62.0% 199 213 7.89 7.37

27 100/ 183 54.6% 72/139 51.8% 204 272 10.07 7.56

Green

Games FG/FGA FT/FTA Rebs pts ppg rpg

28 177/300 59.0% 126/177 71.2% 278 480 17.14 9.93

33 213/386 55.2% 213/283 75.3% 306 639 19.36 9.27

Wish I knew how to format that schedule so that it is readable....

[MadAdder]

I never saw Rocky play, but by those numbers the first 2 years appear to be no comparison. Advantage Caleb.

[tmh8286]

I checked the stats yesterday too, Terry, but didn't have the time to post about them. Actually, amazingly, Rocky's four year career compares fairly closely to what Caleb has done in two years. In fact, at this point, Caleb has scored only 69 fewer points - 1188 to 1119 - than Rocky did in four years. Rocky's four year production of rebounds does top Caleb's two year by quite a bit - Rocky's 986 compared to Caleb's 584, but Caleb is certainly on track to eclipse Rocky's record (third place in school history), and at this point Caleb has a higher rebound per game average than Rocky's career number: 9.6 to 8.4.

Rocky was NOT a good free throw shooter - in four years Rocky had 527 FTA, of which he made only 265, for a pretty dismal 50.3% career free throw average. Caleb, the foul magnet, has taken 460 free throws, made 339, for a 73.7% average.

Defensive output is a little tougher to quantify, and in that regard, comparing Rocky's four years to Caleb's two years, Rocky definitely shines. In the few stats that are available:

Steals - 166® 83©

Blocks - 127® 18©

Caleb is obviously NOT a shot blocker! Steals were comparable, base on four years.

I would be THE FIRST to recognize that there are subjective qualities to players that don't show up in a stat line that effect their value to a team, and that some of those may be missing when you look at the numbers. I think that EagleBackr would be the SECOND to recognize this, because he chooses to ignore the stats altogether and go only with his subjective evaluation when talking about LSG (JK EB). But from a purely objective look, it would seem that Caleb is on track to outperform Rocky in most of the regularly kept stats.

Don't take my views as a putdown of Rocky - I used to LOVE watching him play - but statistically it just doesn't look like he matches up well with Caleb, particularly if you were to look at them at the same point in their careers.

As is the case in most of the games we play NOW, I believe that Caleb would be the difference-maker in a shootout between the two teams.

[Guest Rob Marshall]

"Statistics lie, and liars use statistics."

Terry, obviously you are anything but a liar, have the highest respect and esteem for you as a person, however you have to keep several things in mind as you look at statistics.

(1) Green has TWICE the FG & FT shot attempts as Walls (during the first two years) while also being a much more effective FT shooter and understandably so since everyone agrees Green is an outstanding offensive player.

(2) Minutes played ... how many minutes per game did Walls play his first two years at ORU compared to Green?

(3) Given that Walls really matured and came into his own his final two years at ORU, what I think will be a better comparison of the two players will be a comparison of their final two years at ORU (junior and senior seasons) and obviously Green is just starting his junior season.

(4) Keep in mind too, Walls was offered ONE (1) JUCO scholarship out of HS and that was his only other basketball opportunity other than ORU; he was physically (or basketball wise) no where nearly as developed and ready to step in and play right away as Green was.

(5) ORU was 10-17 during Walls freshman season and 18-9 his sophomore year. Obviously Green has played on teams with better records than Walls and has benefitted from playing in the Mid-Continent Conference, which Rocky only got to do ONE (1) season (his senior year).

(6) Final point, when you consider player development, there is no question to me Green has and hopefully will continue to develop his abilities as a basketball player, but Walls developed much further from where he was when he reported to ORU to where he was when he graduated. In other words, Green as a junior/senior vs. Walls as a junior/senior is MUCH more even than comparing the two as freshman/sophomores.

As I said before and I still say, Green no question gets a head-to-head advantage over Walls. I just don't think it would be as decisive as apparently many of you think. Not saying Walls would have completely locked up Green, because he wouldn't have. Simply saying Walls would have been much tougher to play against for Green than most of the guys he goes up against.