Alaska

[OKC Eagle]

But a group of people who NEEDS it more than those who HAVE it.

I've never understood why this is considered to be a bad thing. The Republican catch phrase this year is "Country First". It seems like they want to put country first, just not at their own financial expense. They'll lay down their lives for the nation, but they won't open up their wallets. Sad.

Republicans give far more money to charity than Democrats.  As Christians we should take care of the poor--out of the goodness of our hearts, not because government forces us to. 

Does all the money given to the "poor" (go to a third world country if you want to see what poor is--our "poor" have HDTV and 2 cars) really help them or does it just make them dependent on government with no incentive to better themselves?  By the way, the "poor" are not the same people all the time--people move in and out of that category all the time, usually because of their own actions.

[tmh8286]

I have to agree with ORUBB on the tax issue as well.  I don't want the lower income to use the rich as a crutch, but the rich should pay more taxes.  The majority of rich people were given or took advantage of opportunities others didn't get and for whatever reason have been more successful financially (it doesn't really matter how it happens).  The poor are always going to be among us, and the rich must help support them.  I'm not capable of breaking down exactly how tax rates should be divided, but our middle class is shrinking daily.  They need help!

I might have to get married soon just so I can afford to put a roof over my head!

Mike, in case you haven't seen this before, you can see how taxes are paid based on income in this table.  Regardless of what you may hear, the wealthy DO pay the majority of taxes in this country.

[OKC Eagle]

I have to agree with ORUBB on the tax issue as well.  I don't want the lower income to use the rich as a crutch, but the rich should pay more taxes.  The majority of rich people were given or took advantage of opportunities others didn't get and for whatever reason have been more successful financially (it doesn't really matter how it happens).  The poor are always going to be among us, and the rich must help support them.  I'm not capable of breaking down exactly how tax rates should be divided, but our middle class is shrinking daily.  They need help!

I might have to get married soon just so I can afford to put a roof over my head!

Does it help the poor to give them just enough assistance to keep them living in relative squalor and taking away any incentive to better themselves?  The U.S. is the greatest country in the history of the world and everybody has the ability to make a great life here (with the exception of those with obvious physical or mental disabilities).  There are many rags to riches success stories out there that have nothing to do with government assistance.  It comes down to personal choices and responsibility.

By the way, when you take all of the money away from the "rich," who is going to employ the poor and middle class?  At some point taxes get too high and the rich will take their ball and go home.  Do you really think that increasing taxes on the rich will create more jobs and opportunity?  That is insane.

The top 25% of income earners already pay 86% of all federal income tax.  The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of all federal income tax.  The top 1% pay 39% of all federal income tax.  How much more should the rich have to pay?  This also explains why tax cuts "unfairly" benefit the rich--because the poor do not pay any tax that can be cut.

[Mike Minyard]

By the way, when you take all of the money away from the "rich," who is going to employ the poor and middle class?  At some point taxes get too high and the rich will take their ball and go home.  Do you really think that increasing taxes on the rich will create more jobs and opportunity?  That is insane.

Give me a break!!!  I'm not talking about taxing them so much that they can't operate and put them at poverty level.  The rich deserve their money because they earned it.  But they have a social responsibility to take care of others.  For example... I'm in a low income bracket.  Every dollar I pay toward anything hurts me way more significantly than a rich person.

There are two sides to every argument, but for you to say it is insane... is insane.  Not a very open minded statement from you.  It's like just telling someone that your opinion is stupid because it doesn't line up with my opinion.

[Mike Minyard]

The top 25% of income earners already pay 86% of all federal income tax.  The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of all federal income tax.  The top 1% pay 39% of all federal income tax.  How much more should the rich have to pay?  This also explains why tax cuts "unfairly" benefit the rich--because the poor do not pay any tax that can be cut.

This is a one sided view as well.  Put yourself in the shoes of a person making $1,600 a month.  By the time you pay for rent, car, utilities, bills, food, etc.  You really don't have much left.  So a tax cut might not be a significant number to a rich person, but an extra $20 a month for that person goes a long ways.  Just like an increase of $0.50 on gas makes a monthly impact of about $30.  Once again... that type of money is nothing to a rich person, but someone making about $30k a year takes hits on a daily basis... even if it is just a minor change.

At least rich people can afford to pay taxes.  I'd rather be rich and have to pay more taxes, than to be poor and be squeezed by taxes.

[OKC Eagle]

When I traveled to Athens, Greece in 1994 we studied the concept of democracy, where the idea began.  They said that a democracy can only work with about 10,000 people, not 300,000 people as we have.  Too many people, to many ideas just doesn't work.

When I was in seminary, the best government one of my professors felt was a

benevolent oligarchy. 

Emphasis on "benevolent."

We do not have a democracy in the U.S.  Democracy is mob-rule.  We have a republic with a Constitution that is not (supposed to be) changeable by the whim of a simple majority and where we elect leaders to make decisions for us.  Even so, we may not be far from demise:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury." - eighteenth-century Scottish historian Alexander Tytler

For a good read about republics see:  http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/republic.html

[ron]

Unfortunately, that threat always seems to be there doesn't it. The rich often don't realize that much of what they have achieved is based initially on the grace that God has given them to be able to be in the circumstances that allow hard work (let's assume this is where the money comes from in this case) to make a difference. Too often everyone in North America, but perhaps even more so the rich think that they should be able to spend everything that grace has given them on themselves . . . a very shallow perspective and thoroughly unbiblical, I believe.

[Bogus Smith]

But a group of people who NEEDS it more than those who HAVE it.

I've never understood why this is considered to be a bad thing. The Republican catch phrase this year is "Country First". It seems like they want to put country first, just not at their own financial expense. They'll lay down their lives for the nation, but they won't open up their wallets. Sad.

Sad??  I guess it depends on what you value more...your life or your money.  In my book (and others' as well), life and time are a much more valuable currency than any country's money.  I realize that not everyone would agree, but that's why we have a message board!!    It is our responsiblity to not only pay taxes, but contribute to help the poor on top of that (which I would guess many of us do).  The poor also have to help themselves based on their capabilities.  If they don't participate in their own support, they will be limited in where they can get financially.

When you get right down to it, we're all financially poor...just at different levels; however, being rich is all about what YOU make it to be.  I can't say that I have all the money I want or need, but I'm rich with good friends (including you on this Board), a great family and living in the greatest country in the world - there is no other country like it!!

[OKC Eagle]

This is a one sided view as well.  Put yourself in the shoes of a person making $1,800 a month.  By the time you pay for rent, car, utilities, bills, food, etc.  You really don't have much left.  So a tax cut might not be a significant number to a rich person, but an extra $20 a month for that person goes a long ways.  Just like an increase of $0.50 on gas makes a monthly impact of about $30.  Once again... that type of money is nothing to a rich person, but someone making about $30k a month takes hits on a daily basis... even if it is just a minor change.

At least rich people can afford to pay taxes.  I'd rather be rich and have to pay more taxes, than to be poor and be squeezed by taxes.

I have been in those shoes and do you know what I did?  I did not complain that the rich were not paying enough taxes, but I borrowed money and went to school and bettered my situation.  As long as taxes don't get confiscutory, there is still incentive to do that.

I think the problem is that government spends too much money.  I would be thrilled with a tax cut that exempted the first $50,000 of income from everybody.  Then everybody pays less and many pay nothing.  It's the transfer of wealth from those who earned to those who did not (with a huge commission taken out by the government bureaucracy) that bugs me.  Everybody should pay less tax and government should get smaller.

[OKC Eagle]

Give me a break!!!  I'm not talking about taxing them so much that they can't operate and put them at poverty level.  The rich deserve their money because they earned it.  But they have a social responsibility to take care of others.  For example... I'm in a low income bracket.  Every dollar I pay toward anything hurts me way more significantly than a rich person.

There are two sides to every argument, but for you to say it is insane... is insane.  Not a very open minded statement from you.  It's like just telling someone that your opinion is stupid because it doesn't line up with my opinion.

What I said was insane is the belief that raising taxes will create more opportunity.  I should not have directed that comment at you because that is not your argument.  It is Obama's argument, however. 

I know where you are coming from because I lived through it.  My dad gave up lots of money to do what he loved--working at ORU.  Just like you.  You are to be commended for your sacrifice and I hope you get a tax cut (along with everybody else).

[Dr. Cornelius]

 

 

You can't change human nature. That was the major lesson of the 20th century... a true shame if we have to relearn it. Unfortunately we probably will.

[Mike Minyard]

OKC... I'm glad you cleared up some of your views. It makes much more sense to me.

On a personal note: Your dad is highly respected in the ORU community. It's not fair to compare his sacrifice to mine. He deserves that respect way more. I feel blessed to have the opportunity to work at ORU. I'll basically get my bachelor's and MBA for almost nothing plus get paid decently. I can't complain about my job. In fact, I am thankful for it daily. It's exciting to be on campus during this era. I hope I can help make an impact.

[ORUTerry]

Fairness is not a Christian concept..... the only ones who demand 'fairness' are the devil and Democrats.

[ron]

Fairness is not a Christian concept.

True . . . The Bible is much more clear on grace, mercy and generosity though, as well as on the dangers of being rich.

[ORU Big Brother]

I absolutely agree the rich should not have to spport the poor. I'm pretty iffy on welfare and how much it really benefits people the way it was intended. But other social services are critical, and many are grossly under-funded.

However, I do believe the wealthy have an obligation to help support their country financially. Yes, it's their money and most have worked hard to get it (how they got it is another thing for some). But their sacrifices aren't as great as those who are really struggling to get by.

Those who are opposed to this... I have to question how many of you have ever really struggled. I question how many of you grew up in a house where your family of five was trying to survive on the $80 a week your mom made as the church secretary while your father was out dodging the Perfect Storm while fishing for scallops in the Atlantic, hoping to make $1000 for 12 days at sea and hoping to get to port in one piece.

To many (not all) on the Republican side, struggling is only driving one Mercedes, or having to sell your 5,000-square foot home to move into a 3,000-square foot home. I understand that there are several wealthy Democrats as well, but most of them have a better understanding of what I said above.

There is no perfect solution. But cutting taxes on those who can most easily afford to pay them just doesn't make sense to me.

[ORU Big Brother]

Fairness is not a Christian concept..... the only ones who demand 'fairness' are the devil and Democrats.

So, are you saying Christians aren't supposed to be fair? Or are they supposed to be fair only when it benefits them and their belief system?

I always thought fairness was a HUMAN concept. Guess not.

That's a really unbelievable statement, Terry.

[ORU Big Brother]

Thanks ORU BB.  I'll keep that in mind...especially the seafood place.

Don't discount Snow City Cafe... best breakfast I've ever had anywhere. Cool place, right in downtown. Nice folks, too.

[ORUTerry]

We have been duped into thinking fairness is what we want. Thankfully, God gives us grace instead of what we deserve. We should treat each other with love and kindness.