MrsSmith Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I wonder if ORU beating OSU was when the decision was made that he would be let go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Boy Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Re Mrs. Smith's question: He has three years remaining on his contract. I hear his salary was around $775k/yr. That is $2.3 million. Do they discount to present value or is it a negotiated figure? Helps to ease the pain, but still a raw deal ... especially with the non-ending patience they have shown with their football program over there. I agree 100% with ttowncount... it will stay with them a long time. Guys, guys, guys...let's be fair and balanced here. We are all "Sutton" fans because we're VERY familiar with the Sutton family; so it's natural most will believe this was an absolute act of disrespect. Holder's running a business though, and men's basketball has been THE program at Oklahoma State since Eddie returned to Oklahoma in 1990. He took Leonard Hamilton's players (Bill Self was on Hamilton's OSU staff and was retained by Coach Sutton) and made an immediate impact stimulating significant success for Cowboy basketball over the decade of the 90's and into the early 2000's, including two Final Four appearances and numerous NCAA tournament victories. The program has clearly slipped on Sean's watch during the last two plus seasons (no NCAA appearances and three straight NIT one and done's). People say it's not his fault and he deserves more time...who's fault is it if it's not Sean's? OSU basketball season ticket sales have fallen off dramatically with probability of more fall out next season if something didn't change. Back to my original lead-in statement, Holder's job is to run a business and he's making a business decision here. If may be right, and it may prove to be wrong. It may not seem fair, but I respect his courage to make a bold call in a highly sensitive situation. Only time will tell if it was the right call or not... Now, on comparing Sean to Gundy...no comparison. OSU men's basketball has been MUCH more successful than Cowboy football ever has been. Think about the number of NCAA tournament victories, including two Final Four appearances in the last 10-15 years. Football hasn't been anywhere close to a BCS bowl let alone an opportunity to compete for a National Championship, so seriously guys which program has slipped further from where it has historically been...no question it's men's basketball. Plus football takes MUCH longer to generate the momentum needed to turn a program and sustain long term success. OSU CowGIRL basketball is an excellent example of the type of quick success that can happen when you're signing 3-5 student athletes per year to fill 13-15 basketball roster spots compared to 20-30 kids in football for 85 scholarship positions. Two completely different animals that most of us aren't too familiar with because ORU's not a football school. Bottom line, not that he necessarily needs the money, but Sean's being paid handsomely to walk away...he'll coach again and be very successful somewhere else. As difficult as it may be to see it today, this may very well turn out to be the best thing that could have ever happened to Sean Sutton. I respect Holder's decision...not saying I think it's completely "fair," but that's how life is...it isn't always fair. My encouragement to Sean is not to be bitter, but to move on and be better for having gone through this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOLO_Gold Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I wonder if ORU beating OSU was when the decision was made that he would be let go. I thought the very same thing today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Boy Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I wonder if ORU beating OSU was when the decision was made that he would be let go. Well it clearly didn't help Sean keep his job, but was our win over OSU a significant piece of the puzzle, I really doubt that. If he goes on to finish 11-5 or better in the Big 12 and goes to the NCAA tournament after losing to us, his loss to ORU is insignificant and forgotten by most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone77 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 GB's comments remind me that it is usually wise to remember that there are usually three sides to every story... yours, mine, and reality somewhere in the middle. In this case we the public are surely only dealing with part of the facts and GB does well to add to this persepective. Yes we probably do respond to it out of affinity for the family and for what Scott has done at ORU. I really do hope that this turns out to be good for Sean. It WAS a really tough gig to follow the guy whose name is on the court. It would have been hard for anyone, but the circumstances surrounding his elevation to HC made it more difficult. He can come through this and be better for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUIsbig Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 total bonehead move total "boonehead" move more like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Titan Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Sorry, have to disagree with the "business" angle. I think this firing was much more about personal agendas and egos than it was wins and losses and fans in the seats. Two years is not enough for anyone unless they are guilty of rules violations or personal misconduct. Even if he was a "dead man walking" in Holder's eyes, Sean was entitled to at least one more year, if for no reason other than as a favor to Eddie for all he has done for OSU. In the way he handled this situation and in his comments Tuesday, Mike Holder come across as shallow and completely unqualified to serve as an athletic director at a BCS school. I was especially impressed with how he plans to find a new coach: a combination of asking opposing coaches who they would pick, listening to suggestions from the public, and consulting the "Cowboy Ethics" book on his coffee table. All he needs now is a divining rod and some Tarot cards. Doug Gottleib was very telling yesterday on The Sports Animal when he said Holder "is in way over his head", operates from a position of "arrogance of the wealthy" thinking he can just buy his way out of this deal with a high-profile coach, and how he famously said once in a staff meeting, "What's the big deal about getting to The Final Four in basketball? In golf, we won national championships." A comment he now denies he ever made, despite witnesses to the contrary. Holder could have helped Sean reach his full potential, if he had just shown the least amount of support, but he consistently left Sean hanging in the wind in a variety of ways, right up to the firing. He admitted Tuesday he "doesn't tell his coaches how to run their programs," but it would appear he simply doesn't know how or what to do to help his coaches be successful. As athletic director, he is supposed to support his coaches any way they can, not just be judge, jury and executioner based on their results. It seems painfully clear to me that this is a personal vendetta, based on years of animosity between two camps: Eddie Sutton, Sean Sutton and former AD Harry Birdwell vs. Mike Holder, T. Boone Pickens and now the new school president, Burns Hargis. Sadly, as is common in these cases, money won out over decency in this fight. I've actually read a little bit of that "Cowboy Ethics" book Holder so glowingly referred to at the press conference. And after yesterday, I really wonder how much of it has actually sunk in with Holder. Care to take a guess at what the overriding theme of the book is? Loyalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Many of us who have been around a long time think firing Ken Hayes at Christmas time was one of the worst days in the history of ORU athletics ... an event from which we have still not recovered. I see a parallel in these two events. I believe OSU has made a terrible mistake, and I think it will damage their program. In many ways, I hope so. I feel sorry for Sean and think he deserved better. I still have alumni bring the Ken Hayes firing up as a black cloud in ORU history.....Count, in my opinion you are very perceptive. how he (Holder) famously said once in a staff meeting, "What's the big deal about getting to The Final Four in basketball? In golf, we won national championships." A comment he now denies he ever made, despite witnesses to the contrary. There are 334 NCAA D-1 basketball programs. If you have a bucket of 330 white marbles and 4 orange marbles, what are your chances of getting an orange marble? 1.1976% Good luck OSU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Loyalty. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Titan Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Another smoking-gun quote from the press conference: Holder: "Are you asking me if I have a list of coaching candidates in my top desk drawer? The answer is, 'No, I don't'." What? Too arrogant to feel like he even needs to keep up with the college basketball scene, even in case of an emergency hire? Or, does he have an ace up his sleeve in the form of a coach-already-in-hand, and he's just flat out lying? Either way, it's insulting, and reflects poorly on his professionalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUTerry Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 This has train wreck written all over it. I get the explanations about it being a business and that the 'program was headed in the wrong direction'. I know that the attendance was down and certain boosters/fans were demanding a change. But giving a coach only two years to prove himself sets a bad precedent. Some will argue that Sean was there as an assistant and that should count for more.... but he was not in charge. When he was in charge, he applied discipline and ran off players who were bad apples - something that he knew would impact his win-loss record. Two years is not enough time to put his stamp on the program. It sounded like the bar will be lowered for the next coach - and I assume OSU will have to sign them to a long term deal for some serious money to entice any credible coach to move to Stillwater. If they only gave the son of the program's legend two years - what will they give an 'outsider'. How could they make this decision and not have someone in mind or even lined up to take the job. I assume Holder is fibbing when he says the process has not even started - or he is incompetent. I agree with OT - this reeks of personal animus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Titan Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Bill Haisten just said on The Sports Animal that he has it on good authority from a source at OSU that they may not hire a new basketball coach until the end of May. Gee, what's the hurry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORUTerry Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Well, I guess Holder was right.... they really have not started a search process yet. Pretty incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Could they be planning on hiring someone that will bring his whole Juco team with him like Tulsa did with Noel (Nolan?) Richardson way back in my day? It truly does not make sense unless they have someone in the bag that can bring the necessary recruits with him. It worked at Tulsa back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Could they be planning on hiring someone that will bring his whole Juco team with him like Tulsa did with Noel (Nolan?) Richardson way back in my day? It truly does not make sense unless they have someone in the bag that can bring the necessary recruits with him. It worked at Tulsa back in the day. Didn't Trickey do somewhat the same thing when he came to ORU? Seems like I heard he brought in a bunch of great players with him. It's beginning to look like Holder is completely out of his element. If he doesn't recognize the CRITICAL importance of having a basketball coach in place at this time of year there's little conclusion you can draw other than that he's incompetent. Boy, it'll be interesting to see how this one works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmh8286 Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Mike Carter has got to be sitting back and shaking his head over this whole deal . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Titan Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Perhaps the delay has been caused by Holder's inability to find a specific chapter on hiring basketball coaches in his "Cowboy Ethics" book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OKC Eagle Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Why would Holder care about basketball? After all, isn't OSU a football school? Okay, maybe a wrestling school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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