Re: Conference USA

[Texasgrip]

I apologize, I forgot the complete lack of reasonable objectivity on anything TU related over here. How bout this... C-USA will always have more post season bids than the Summit league.

ash   =o)

I haven't the time to re-read all 11 pages of this thread...heck, I might have even missed a couple of posts the first time.  But I don't recall anyone saying the Summit is going to have, or that the Mid-Con regularly had, more bids than C-USA.  Just that there's no way C-USA is gonna have 5-6 post season bids consistently anytime soon...

[ashVID]

There have been MULTIPLE references to CUSA and SUMMIT both having the same number of bids recently. Go look at the coaching upgrades and recruiting classes and tell me CUSA is not headed in the direction of the MVC. It may be 100% unfair but a team with the name Houston has a much better chance than Mizzou St to get an at large with the same RPI. Barry has been screwed but I dont expect that to change. CUSA still needs a schedule upgrade but look closer at these teams/coaches/classes.

Memphis: Very good coach in Calipari, likely to be pre-season #1 in the nation, top 5 recruiting class

Tulsa: A team on the rise, great recruiter at the helm and by ORU fans admissions will do so well he will be wooed by bigger schools

Houston: Good coach in Penders that will hit 600 wins this year, injuries killed them last year, look for them to be a top 40 team this  year

SMU: Doherty is rebuilding his rep and signed a top 25 recruiting class, they are poised to make a run

Southern Miss: Former NCAA Coach of the Year, turned a 10 win team into a 20 win team last year, then signed a top 50 class

UAB: Coach that has been to the final TWO, great high major program, top 50 recruiting class

UCF and UTEP are up and down but will be capable of post season in any given year.

You think I am crazy for saying I expect 2 NCAA and 3 NIT bids from the above teams within 5 years? The NIT shrinking to 32 teams doesnt help but I dont think I am very far off. This league is anchored by Memphis, who will be in the hunt to win the national championship every year. I bet there are 3 teams in post season next year.

ash  =o)

[Gold*]

I think we would love to not have this conversation.  I would note that it is ORU fans that keep bringing up TU and CUSA. We aren't starting threads over here entitled "Everything you might have ever wanted to know about CUSA."  Quit bagging on us and we won't feel the need to point out the errors.

[Old Titan]

This whole thing started in Post #327 of this thread, when ORUJason made a pretty good point:  all things remaining equal (meaning Memphis stays really good), ORU and TU have about the same chance for the next four or five years (Rotnei's tenure) of making the NCAA tournament - TU as an at-large bid (if they're 2nd or maybe 3rd in C-USA), and ORU as Summit League tournament champion.

Ash then fanned the flames in Post #328 by saying he would be shocked, within the next five years, if C-USA did not have a combined NCAA and NIT representation of 5 to 6 teams, which a few of us took issue with in subsequent posts.

Let's get back to the topic Jason first touched on, and how it might relate to Rotnei's (or any recruits') decision in choosing between the two schools:  is it fair to say that ORU and TU have about the same chance of making the NCAA tournament the next five years?  (I will grant you this much, TU fans:  the best seed ORU can hope for in the foreseable future coming out of the Summit is probably a #12, maybe a #11, and could be as low as a #16.  TU as an at-large out of C-USA would likely do no worse than a #13, and could be as high as a #7, or even a #6).

[Gold*]

I don't know who the "most" are that think TU is in the lead for Rotnei Clarke.  You can look at the Gonzaga message board and find a few people who think the John Stockton personal tutoring angle is going to put them over the top.  It is certainly incorrect to say that "nobody" thinks Gonzaga is in the picture.  Why would he take the trip to WA if they aren't in the picture?

Why would Rotnei want to go to TU over Kentucky?  Maybe because Kentucky has too many guards for Rotnei to leapfrog and because Kentucky is too far away.  But both of those reasons apply to ORU as well as TU. 

At ORU Rotnei would start immediately, and it is very possible that the offense would be designed around him, because Caleb is gone, and there doesn't appear to be another marquee player of Caleb/Rotnei's caliber on ORU's team right now.  Instead, there are a lot of talented team players that could complement Rotnei very well.  Bill Self tailoring the offense to suit Tim Gill comes to mind when I think of Rotnei's opportunities at ORU.

So if it really is between ORU and TU, assuming the Willie Warren thing is souring Rotnei on OU, then what advantage does TU have over ORU?  Has TU been to the NCAAs over the last few years?  No, but ORU has gone 2 years in a row.  So if you were to argue that a Conference USA team (besides Memphis) has a better chance to make the big dance than ORU in the Mid-Con, I would disagree.  I don't see another team besides Memphis that is going to be in position to get an at-large bid over the next couple years.  Who would it be?  Central Florida?  Houston?  Tulsa?  This isn't the Conference-USA from 5 years ago with Cincinnatti, Louisville, etc. (See C-USA team records from last year listed below)

Would you argue that Wojcik and company are a better coaching staff than Sutton and Company?  I don't think that is a winning argument.  Wojcik is decent, but he's no Bill Self.  I don't know if he still gets in the player's faces like he used to, but I wouldn't want to play for a coach with that type of approach.  During his first year, he really let some of his player's have it during games.  He may have toned it down now that he finally ended up with a winning record, but I would assume that if he is generally like that in games, then the practices would be the same way or worse.

And while TU fans can pretend that Rotnei's dad being on the ORU staff doesn't play into Rotnei's decision, that doesn't make it true.  Over the last 6-9 months, Mr. Clarke has been developing a trusting relationship with the ORU coaching staff, and that means a lot.  There is risk and uncertainty in any decision that Rotnei makes, but that trust that comes from Mr. Clarke working with the coaches on a daily basis would give any parent a comfort level that probably could not be found with another coaching staff.

Also, as has been discussed before, if receiving his education in a religious environment that fits well with his belief system is important to Rotnei, then ORU will have a big advantage over TU or any other school.  Yes there are opportunites for religious growth everywhere, but that doesn't change the unique Christian emphasis and atmosphere that ORU provides.  TU has the Baptist Student Association and a theological department, just like many other campuses, (and a mosque), but it is apples and oranges vs. the religious emphasis that permeates the ORU experience.

In the end, it will be Rotnei's decision, and I believe that when he knows for sure where he is supposed to go, he will announce it.  But asserting that TU is in the lead doesn't make logical sense to me.

One thing is for sure...  Whenever Rotnei does make his decision, there are going to be a lot of disappointed people around this area, because there are going to be several losers, and only one winner.  If Rotnei ends up choosing either ORU or TU, it will make the Mayor's Cup series even more emotionally charged than in the past, if that is possible.

Team      Conf. All

              W L  W L

Memphis  16 0 33 4

UCF        11 5 22 9

Houston  10 6 18 15

So. Miss  9 7 20 11

Tulsa      9 7 20 11

Tulane    9 7 17 13

Rice        8 8 16 16

UAB        7 9 15 16

Marshall  7 9 13 19

UTEP      6 10 14 17

SMU      3 13 14 17

E Carolina 1 15 6 24

The assertion was that no CUSA team (other than Memphis) has a better chance of making the tournament.  That assertion has bad logic.  You even concede that a team in second or third in CUSA can make the dance -- that wasn't Jason's argument. 

Also, I'd like to see one of y'all tell Paul Smith that he hasn't a good experience as Christian TU through FCA.

[Bogus Smith]

Also, I'd like to see one of y'all tell Paul Smith that he hasn't a good experience as Christian TU through FCA.

Gold*, I don't think you know Paul Smith well enough to know whether he has had a good experience or not in practicing his walk.

However, knowing ORU, I can tell you that RC's belief in Christ will be embraced instead of tolerated as an ORU student.  He will be given opportunities at ORU to express that faith in public if he wants.  I don't think TU will be providing him with that type of platform to express his beliefs...he'll have to assert himself (play well enough to be a player-of-the-game or in an interview) to grab the mic and express his thanks to God.

[Gold*]

Gold*, I don't think you know Paul Smith well enough to know whether he has had a good experience or not in practicing his walk.

However, knowing ORU, I can tell you that RC's belief in Christ will be embraced instead of tolerated as an ORU student.  He will be given opportunities at ORU to express that faith in public if he wants.  I don't think TU will be providing him with that type of platform to express his beliefs...he'll have to assert himself (play well enough to be a player-of-the-game or in an interview) to grab the mic and express his thanks to God.

And you know Paul?

I really don't like this issue and wish a couple of you would refrain from bringing it up again and again.  And I don't really get the point.  You think the only time to Paul expresses his faith is when he throws for 300 yards?  Does a player at the end of ORU's bench get to publicly express their views?  I really don't follow the logic here.  I think the inference that TU players are somehow muted from expressing their faith because they don't go to an evangelical-focused school is quite insulting.

[Bogus Smith]

And you know Paul?

I really don't like this issue and wish a couple of you would refrain from bringing it up again and again.  

To answer your response, I didn't say that I knew Paul Smith.  You stated and/or implied that Paul Smith was having a good Christian experience at TU.  I don't think either one of us know Paul well enough to state that.

Secondly, I didn't bring up the issue....you did.  If you want to refrain from this topic being raised, please start with the guy in the mirror. 

[Gold*]

Erroneous.

Paul Smith is noted for his involvement in FCA.  I assume he would not be involved unless he had a good experience in it.  Do you disagree with that assumption?  I want to hear your reasoning behind it.

Jason brought up the issue of faith and TU, not I.  Re-read the post:

"Also, as has been discussed before, if receiving his education in a religious environment that fits well with his belief system is important to Rotnei, then ORU will have a big advantage over TU or any other school.  Yes there are opportunites for religious growth everywhere, but that doesn't change the unique Christian emphasis and atmosphere that ORU provides.  TU has the Baptist Student Association and a theological department, just like many other campuses, (and a mosque), but it is apples and oranges vs. the religious emphasis that permeates the ORU experience."

I responded to that point.  My point was that Paul seems to have had a good experience in FCA.

[tmh8286]

With regards to Paul Smith, this week one of my sons went to "See You at the Party", which was a metro-area- wide evening event following "See You at the Pole" that morning (which is an annual meeting of students one morning each year at the flag poles of their schools to pray for their schools and our country, for those that didn't know already), and Paul Smith led praise and worship at the beginning, then shared what my son said was less like a testimony and more like a sermon, afterward.  He said it was incredible. 

Paul Smith is a truly outstanding Christian young man, and I'm sure that you would find MANY just like him at TU. 

[Bogus Smith]

I think the point that I was making is being missed.  I know for a fact that Paul Smith has a strong Christian commitment that stems from his home and personal relationship with Christ.  He is an excellent ambassador of his Christ.  FCA is a great vehicle for him to strengthen that walk and is a very strong thread in the TU society for those students that are seeking that lifestyle.  I have been associated directly or indirectly with FCA for over 30 years and know that it is one of the best parachurch organizations within American society that has a way of reaching the unchurched and non-believer more than many churches and other parachurches.

That being said, I don't know if any of us know how Paul is treated at TU with his peers and superiors since we're not there to know that.  To pretend that Paul is having a good experience at TU with his Christian walk is speculative.  When Josh Blankenship was going through his trials and tribulations with his playing performance, playing time and eventual demotion, I don't know that Josh would say that his Christian experience at TU was spectacular as those outside his FCA sphere were not that supportive, including his coach (I realize that Keith Burns is totally different from Todd Graham, but is still a reflection of the environment).  It's very possible that if Paul was not such an outstanding athlete, that many of his peers would use his Christianity as the reason his play was soft or non-aggressive, that they would make fun of his God or reduce their level of support - even if he asked for their prayers.

I know for a fact that ORU's president would pray with and for Rotnei if he attended ORU.  I can't say that same experience would hold true with Steadman (I don't know him well enough to make that statement).  I know that if the other players on an ORU team ridiculed Rotnei for his Christian stance in the midst of a slump, that the Coaches would put a stop to it instead of add to the lack of support.  I don't know Wojcik well enough as to how he would approach a situation like that, so I won't speculate.  I know that Rotnei would encounter some inconsiderate students at ORU just like he would at TU, but that would be the exception and not the rule.  I don't know the moral thread of TU well enough to say the same with that student body, but if the students are a reflection of their "fans in the stands" with their expletives and other emotions that go against a Christian lifestyle, I would say that Rotnei's experience would not be as positive.

My response was to the statement "Also, I'd like to see one of y'all tell Paul Smith that he hasn't a good experience as (a) Christian (at) TU through FCA"  (grammatical changes added). FCA only meets a few hours a week.  His Christian experience at TU may be totally different away from FCA.  Rotnei's Christian experience at ORU would be 7 by 24, if that is important to him.

I wasn't intending to respond to this thread further, but TMH's response led me to believe that I might be questioning Paul's commitment to his Christian walk.  It couldn't be further from the truth as he is a remarkable young man - both on and off the field; however, Paul (and the other few hundred young men and women) is the exception instead of the rule at TU.  Rotnei could enjoy a much broader fellowship in the ORU environment if that is important to him.

[tmh8286]

Bogus, my intention was only to share what an exemplary Christian young man Paul Smith is, and was not really meaning to be responding to anything in this thread, other than the fact that his name was mentioned and that left the door open to say what I did.  I wasn't meaning to be responding to anything you had said, one way or the other, but I think it's good that you took it that way, because what you said in your follow-up post is very good.

My last statement about there being many good Christian kids at TU was intended only at it's face value - I know that there are many good Christian kids at TU, just like Paul Smith.  That's all I meant.

[Gold*]

I think the point that I was making is being missed.  I know for a fact that Paul Smith has a strong Christian commitment that stems from his home and personal relationship with Christ.  He is an excellent ambassador of his Christ.  FCA is a great vehicle for him to strengthen that walk and is a very strong thread in the TU society for those students that are seeking that lifestyle.  I have been associated directly or indirectly with FCA for over 30 years and know that it is one of the best parachurch organizations within American society that has a way of reaching the unchurched and non-believer more than many churches and other parachurches.

That being said, I don't know if any of us know how Paul is treated at TU with his peers and superiors since we're not there to know that.  To pretend that Paul is having a good experience at TU with his Christian walk is speculative.  When Josh Blankenship was going through his trials and tribulations with his playing performance, playing time and eventual demotion, I don't know that Josh would say that his Christian experience at TU was spectacular as those outside his FCA sphere were not that supportive, including his coach (I realize that Keith Burns is totally different from Todd Graham, but is still a reflection of the environment).  It's very possible that if Paul was not such an outstanding athlete, that many of his peers would use his Christianity as the reason his play was soft or non-aggressive, that they would make fun of his God or reduce their level of support - even if he asked for their prayers.

I know for a fact that ORU's president would pray with and for Rotnei if he attended ORU.  I can't say that same experience would hold true with Steadman (I don't know him well enough to make that statement).  I know that if the other players on an ORU team ridiculed Rotnei for his Christian stance in the midst of a slump, that the Coaches would put a stop to it instead of add to the lack of support.  I don't know Wojcik well enough as to how he would approach a situation like that, so I won't speculate.  I know that Rotnei would encounter some inconsiderate students at ORU just like he would at TU, but that would be the exception and not the rule.  I don't know the moral thread of TU well enough to say the same with that student body, but if the students are a reflection of their "fans in the stands" with their expletives and other emotions that go against a Christian lifestyle, I would say that Rotnei's experience would not be as positive.

My response was to the statement "Also, I'd like to see one of y'all tell Paul Smith that he hasn't a good experience as (a) Christian (at) TU through FCA"  (grammatical changes added). FCA only meets a few hours a week.  His Christian experience at TU may be totally different away from FCA.  Rotnei's Christian experience at ORU would be 7 by 24, if that is important to him.

I wasn't intending to respond to this thread further, but TMH's response led me to believe that I might be questioning Paul's commitment to his Christian walk.  It couldn't be further from the truth as he is a remarkable young man - both on and off the field; however, Paul (and the other few hundred young men and women) is the exception instead of the rule at TU.  Rotnei could enjoy a much broader fellowship in the ORU environment if that is important to him.

So what you're saying is that you don't know much about TU, its student-athletes, or its athletic program.  I can tell.

[Bogus Smith]

So what you're saying is that you don't know much about TU, its student-athletes, or its athletic program.  I can tell.

That's the problem with your posts, Gold*...you either don't want to understand or fail to comprehend what is being said.  Either way, it's a bad reflection on your school and you.  My post was certainly not intended to state my expertise on TU athletics, but I do know more about what's going on there than the scope of my post.

[Gold*]

LOL.  Very fair on the edit there folks.  Great board.

[ashVID]

You have to be careful when trying to gage how "Christian" things are. I would not for one second say that ORU is a more Christian environment, I WOULD say there is less temptation there in general. There is a ton of stagnant faith at ORU, that can be as harmful or even worse than being in a more challenging environment. TU is a small private school, there surely is the normal college party stuff but there is a strong Christian element and it is growing. There was a recent football event (in the last couple months) where over 30 TU football players came forward to accept Christ.

I think it is back to 50/50 TU and ORU in the Rotnei race. He will be a star at either school. Does he want to play for his dad or does he want to be in a slightly larger pond with a better chance to play professionally after college. He cant really go wrong either way.

ash  =o)

[Old Titan]

That's the problem with your posts, Gold*...you either don't want to understand or fail to comprehend what is being said.

Welcome to my world!

It's worse than talking to a brick wall - it's like arguing with a child.

A petulant child sorely in need of some good ol' fashioned discipline. 

[tmh8286]

You have to be careful when trying to gage how "Christian" things are. I would not for one second say that ORU is a more Christian environment, I WOULD say there is less temptation there in general. There is a ton of stagnant faith at ORU, that can be as harmful or even worse than being in a more challenging environment. TU is a small private school, there surely is the normal college party stuff but there is a strong Christian element and it is growing. There was a recent football event (in the last couple months) where over 30 TU football players came forward to accept Christ.

I think your post is very insightful, Ash.