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Arkansas Game....


ORUTerry

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OUTSTANDING info, buddy. I need to hang out with you a little more at the next game!! So much to learn, so little time!

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Here's the catch though...you want to try and pick a point in the count where it's not a good idea for them to pitch-out, like 2-0, or 2-1.

At the risk of sounding like a complete novice (which, admittedly, I am), why would those pitch counts discourage a pitch-out? In my limited understanding, it seems like a pitch-out could be initiated at any point in the count.

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Well, in general, you don't want to run the count to 3-0 or 3-1. Because you're in danger of walking him. At 3-1, the pitcher has to pitch around the plate or be real accurate with his off-speed pitch, since a good hitter is only going to hit a pitch that looks real good to him. He can afford to give up a strike and make the pitcher earn any chance of an out against the batter.

If the count is 0-1 or 0-2, the pitcher can pitch out and then your 3rd base runner who already broke for the plate is toast.

Does that answer your question?

What's fun about baseball is so many of these things can be situational. Baseball is a game of strategy in more ways than meets the eye.

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Well, in general, you don't want to run the count to 3-0 or 3-1. Because you're in danger of walking him. At 3-1, the pitcher has to pitch around the plate or be real accurate with his off-speed pitch, since a good hitter is only going to hit a pitch that looks real good to him. He can afford to give up a strike and make the pitcher earn any chance of an out against the batter.

If the count is 0-1 or 0-2, the pitcher can pitch out and then your 3rd base runner who already broke for the plate is toast.

Does that answer your question?

What's fun about baseball is so many of these things can be situational. Baseball is a game of strategy in more ways than meets the eye.

That's an excellent explanation, ETG. I was misunderstanding the term "pitch-out." I was equating the term with an intentional walk. Now I understand what you were saying. But it does bring up another question - would the pitcher do a pitch-out in that situation because he was suspecting a squeeze play? Would the pitcher/coach pitch out because of the situation, or because they picked up on some indication that a squeeze play was coming? Or both?

Inquiring minds want to know!

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  • 2 weeks later...

In last night's Twins vs. White Sox game, the twins had runners on 1st and 2nd with nobody out.

Luis Castillo came out to bunt, to advance the runners to 2nd and 3rd, even though it would probably give up an out.

Instead, he popped the bunt up, the first baseman caught the ball, he threw to the pitcher at first, who then threw to the 2nd baseman.

The result was a triple play. I don't like the sacrifice bunt when you already have a guy on 2nd. Usually, a player from 2nd will score on most decent hits in the outfield. And with 3 outs to work with, the odds are good that you will either get a walk or a hit to advance the player to 3rd or to score. I just think some manager's get too cute with bunts sometimes and squander opportunities.

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That's an excellent explanation, ETG. I was misunderstanding the term "pitch-out." I was equating the term with an intentional walk. Now I understand what you were saying. But it does bring up another question - would the pitcher do a pitch-out in that situation because he was suspecting a squeeze play? Would the pitcher/coach pitch out because of the situation, or because they picked up on some indication that a squeeze play was coming? Or both?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Sorry tmh that I never answered this:

"would the pitcher do a pitch-out in that situation because he was suspecting a squeeze play?"

Yes. Anytime the pitcher thinks ANY kind of play might be on that involves base runners stealing, batters bunting for a squeeze, a hit-and-run is on, etc., the pitcher may pitch out.

"Would the pitcher/coach pitch out because of the situation, or because they picked up on some indication that a squeeze play was coming? Or both?"

Yes on both. Again, strategy of baseball. If the Coach on defense can out-coach the Coach on offense and throw a pitch-out because he thinks the suicide squeeze may be on, he's won the chess match for the moment, if you will :wink:

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In last night's Twins vs. White Sox game, the twins had runners on 1st and 2nd with nobody out.

Luis Castillo came out to bunt, to advance the runners to 2nd and 3rd, even though it would probably give up an out.

Instead, he popped the bunt up, the first baseman caught the ball, he threw to the pitcher at first, who then threw to the 2nd baseman.

The result was a triple play. I don't like the sacrifice bunt when you already have a guy on 2nd. Usually, a player from 2nd will score on most decent hits in the outfield. And with 3 outs to work with, the odds are good that you will either get a walk or a hit to advance the player to 3rd or to score. I just think some manager's get too cute with bunts sometimes and squander opportunities.

ORUJason, I know what you're saying. But I like this play. It's a more common one than you'd think. If you think about it, it's a situational decision based on several factors:

1.) How good a hitter is the guy at the plate? If Albert Pujols is at the plate, fuggettabouit - he's swinging away everytime! If it's a David Eckstein - you might be having him sacrifice those runners over to put 2 guys in scoring position or at the least get a run in with a ground out or a sac fly (there'd be only 1 out if the sacrifice bunt worked). If the guy up after the bunter is a power hitter or just a guy who can drive the ball, you might see how this is an easy decision to have your Eckstein-type player sacrifice bunt your 2 runners over.

2.) How well is the pitcher pitching that game? If he's throwing well and shutting guys down and you've got a guy or two coming up on deck and in the hole that have fared pretty well against the pitcher, you do the sac bunt.

3.) How many runs are you up by/down by? Sometimes coaches if they're down by 2 runs, they're very interested in getting those 2 runners over into scoring position and stay away from a double play ball to kill the rally. They'd love to tie the game!

4.) What inning are you and what is the score? If it's the early innings, you may not try this play. If it's the late innings and you're down by a 2 or 3 runs, it starts to look pretty attractive.

So, it's all situational. What's funny about your example is that it is extremely rare! Triple plays are rare indeed...and I could be wrong, but I think that triple plays originated off of a pop-up bunt are rarer still since the 2nd runner usually would get back in time and avoid the triple play. The runners may have thought the popped-up bunt would not be caught...that would be an interesting highlight to see.

In short, I like the play in order to stay out of the double play. In the bigs, you won't see this happen too much if you've got power guys at the plate - they're not paid millions per year to bunt in those situations, they're paid to put the ball in the gap or over the fence!!! :lol::wink::)

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Gardenhire, the Twins manager, tries to manufacture runs because he doesn't have a team stocked with HR hitters, so I follow his logic in that situation.

And obviously triple plays are extremely unusual, so that's part of what made it such an interesting play.

I would be curious to see an average bunting percentage, to determine how often a bunt actually achieves the desired goal vs. an average hitting percentage, but of course it would have to take into account sacrifice bunts, sacrifice flys, etc.

Rob Walton also likes to manufacture runs by being aggressive with base stealing and bunting. I also agree that the choice to bunt is heavily based on the capability of the hitter at the plate, and that may have played into the original choice to bunt in the Arkansas game that started this discussion. When it works, he looks like a genius.....

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