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mvfcfan

Would you support ORU moving to the MVC?

Would you support Oral Roberts moving to the Missouri Valley Conference?  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you support ORU moving to the MVC?

    • Yes
      17
    • No
      2


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ORUTerry
2 hours ago, oruvoice said:

Yep. Word on the street is that at least one prominent member of this message board may not renew his season tickets this year...

Would be interested to hear his reasoning (economics, win-loss record, coaching change, etc. )

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ORU82

Not sure who is being referenced about not renewing season tickets but I know many who donate who also have season tickets who are absolutely thrilled with the move and thought it was long over due.

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Idig32

I know I'm a little late to the party but here goes.

The obvious thing that has changed since the last go round with the MVC is that ORU isn't sitting with an entrenched Coach overseeing a middling to bad team. We shouldn't underestimate the possible impact of this as it pertains to the MVC considering ORU for expansion. The firing of Coach Sutton should make ORU more attractive to the MVC as it shows ORU is at least trying to win. Whether winning actually happens remains to be seen. However, a year or two back, people were wondering if the ORU administration even cared about winning. Now, we see how the administration made a tremendously difficult decision, and paid a significant sum of money, to fire a popular coach. All in an attempt to reinvigorate a stagnating program. This should send a clear message to the MVC that ORU wants to win.

Obviously, it's doubtful that the MVC will consider ORU even now. But I've got to think we are in a better position than last time around.

Just my two cents...

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EagleManiac
4 hours ago, Idig32 said:

I know I'm a little late to the party but here goes.

The obvious thing that has changed since the last go round with the MVC is that ORU isn't sitting with an entrenched Coach overseeing a middling to bad team. We shouldn't underestimate the possible impact of this as it pertains to the MVC considering ORU for expansion. The firing of Coach Sutton should make ORU more attractive to the MVC as it shows ORU is at least trying to win. Whether winning actually happens remains to be seen. However, a year or two back, people were wondering if the ORU administration even cared about winning. Now, we see how the administration made a tremendously difficult decision, and paid a significant sum of money, to fire a popular coach. All in an attempt to reinvigorate a stagnating program. This should send a clear message to the MVC that ORU wants to win.

Obviously, it's doubtful that the MVC will consider ORU even now. But I've got to think we are in a better position than last time around.

Just my two cents...

I felt Billy Wilson made it very clear in his interviews that firing Scott was not based on the W-L column or the trajectory of the program. But hopefully it's PERCEIVED as a rededication to athletics by those less familiar with us. 

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mvfcfan

Positives for Oral Roberts (from an outsider):

 

Basketball:

1) Had 14 consecutive winning seasons from 2003-2015.

2) Made the NCAA tournament 3 times during that stretch (and should have made it in 2012).

3) Spends comparatively to other MVC schools and actually plays in a real basketball arena.

 

Baseball:

1) Has made the NCAA tournament 18 times since 1998. (WOW!!!)

2) Also has 18 conference championships and 18 tournament championships in that time frame.

3) Wichita State was historically a good baseball program. We need someone to replace them. Oral Roberts has clearly dominated in baseball.

 

Others:

1) Location: 3 hour drive from Missouri State who needs a travel partner.

2) Private school: Currently the Public-private split is 5-5. Adding Murray State would make it 6-5 in favor of publics. Adding ORU keeps it even at 6-6.

3) Market: Tulsa's metro area is just under 1 million.

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ORUalum

CONS for the decision makers in the MVC

  • ORU's charismatic/pentecostal distinctive
  • ORU's controversial founder
  • lastly and probably not as much of a factor as the previous 2 -- the decline of athletics the last 4-6 yrs

the MVC presidents will never extend an offer to ORU

ORU needs to improve overall in athletics and start competing for championships in the Summit league.  the MVC is never going to happen.

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theeagleman5

The last 2 posts pretty much wrap it all up in a nutshell.....ORU isn't going anywhere.....at least not to the MVC.....ORUALUM's comments are sad but true.....we need to turn things around in the Summit in basketball before we can even think about something else.....:unsure:

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ORUParentLurker

I'm new to following ORU so I don't know the history.  But I can tell you my perspective is there is a ton of potential and dormant passion in the basketball program.  Even with down attendance numbers ORU is tops in the Summit and comparable to most MVC schools.  In fact, when conference realignment is mentioned on here my first thought is always why not the MVC?  It seems like a perfect fit.  Conference alignment decisions are long term decisions.  Its not based on the current state of the programs, its based on the commitment level.  Hiring a new coach who has some pretty close ties to the best of the best in college basketball will help show that commitment. 

BTW, the MVC has a reputation for being a very strong league but it really hasn't been lately.  Now they lose Wichita State and the league is reeling.  Illinois State lost only a handful of games and ran away with the regular season title and still missed out on an at large bid.  That had to be pretty stunning.   

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mvfcfan

I know it's easy to get down on yourselves when things aren't going as good as you would like them to. But let's compare.

Loyola Chicago had 4 winning seasons this century before joining the MVC. Two years before they joined the MVC they went 1-17 in the Horizon League. They had exactly zero tournament appearances (of any kind) this century before joining the Valley. In fact they haven't been to the NCAA's since 1985.

The MVC and ORU were talking a few years back and that was before Wichita State and Creighton both left. Now that they are both gone and they want Murray State, the situation is a lot more favorable to ORU than it once was. Especially when they are saying that they can't add Murray State because it would leave Missouri State without a travel partner, but that they are going to put together a search committee to see if the MVC should go to 12.

But here's the article on where the MVC might go to 12. http://www.the-standard.org/sports/missouri-valley-to-add-valparaiso-might-add-more/article_1ee26bd4-34ec-11e7-9fad-93a693fe64c3.html There was one a while back that had the radio interview, but I unfortunately can't find it. It says in the article though that they will be searching for the next 9 months to make sure they can get the best two members possible and that they believe there are two teams out there that fit in with the MVC. (As mentioned before I strongly believe that they are only searching for one team. I think Murray State has a foot in the door already.) Since the search committee will be searching until February, I have to assume that an announcement will be made sometime in March to give the two teams and affected conferences plenty of time in advance to figure out their next moves.

I just have to think that Oral Roberts is going to be considered in this process, particularly when schools like UIC, Milwaukee, Loyola, and Omaha have been in the past. And if Missouri State having a travel partner is a big issue and their president is leading the search, then I have to think that ORU is a definite contender.

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ORUParentLurker
12 minutes ago, mvfcfan said:

I know it's easy to get down on yourselves when things aren't going as good as you would like them to. But let's compare.

Loyola Chicago had 4 winning seasons this century before joining the MVC. Two years before they joined the MVC they went 1-17 in the Horizon League. They had exactly zero tournament appearances (of any kind) this century before joining the Valley. In fact they haven't been to the NCAA's since 1985.

The MVC and ORU were talking a few years back and that was before Wichita State and Creighton both left. Now that they are both gone and they want Murray State, the situation is a lot more favorable to ORU than it once was. Especially when they are saying that they can't add Murray State because it would leave Missouri State without a travel partner, but that they are going to put together a search committee to see if the MVC should go to 12.

But here's the article on where the MVC might go to 12. http://www.the-standard.org/sports/missouri-valley-to-add-valparaiso-might-add-more/article_1ee26bd4-34ec-11e7-9fad-93a693fe64c3.html There was one a while back that had the radio interview, but I unfortunately can't find it. It says in the article though that they will be searching for the next 9 months to make sure they can get the best two members possible and that they believe there are two teams out there that fit in with the MVC. (As mentioned before I strongly believe that they are only searching for one team. I think Murray State has a foot in the door already.) Since the search committee will be searching until February, I have to assume that an announcement will be made sometime in March to give the two teams and affected conferences plenty of time in advance to figure out their next moves.

I just have to think that Oral Roberts is going to be considered in this process, particularly when schools like UIC, Milwaukee, Loyola, and Omaha have been in the past. And if Missouri State having a travel partner is a big issue and their president is leading the search, then I have to think that ORU is a definite contender.

Yeah its easy to get wrapped up in your own misery.  I look at the situation and say what has Valpo, Murray State and Loyola done that puts them ahead of ORU as a candidate?  What has Omaha done?  They've only had D1 basketball for 4 or 5 years.  ORU makes a lot of sense.  It's basketball and baseball focused.  Strong academics.  Relative geographic fit despite not technically being in the Missouri Valley.

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ORU82

Okay, here is a breakdown of MBB attendance/budgets for the current MVC with Murray State, Milwaukee, Omaha, ORU and Northern Kentucky thrown in.  The attendance stats are for 2016 per the NCAA.  The budget info comes from the US Department of Education for the 2015-16 year.  As for attendance it would go as follows:  1. Bradley (5,953), 2. U.N.I. (5,378), 3. S.I.U. (5,277), 4. Illinois State (5,199), 5. Evansville (5,147), 6. Missouri State (4,140), 7. Indiana State (3,672), 8. Valpo (3,572),  9. ORU (3,317), 10. Murray State (3,266),  11. Drake (3,087), 12. Milwaukee (2,667), 13. Northern Kentucky (2,296), 14. Omaha (2,265), 15. Loyola-Chicago (1,831).

As for budget it would go as follows:  1. Bradley ($3,128,419), 2. U.N.I. (($2,899,699), 3. Evansville ($2,899,667), 4. Milwaukee (2,877,237), 5. Loyola-Chicago ($2,745,553), 6. ORU ($2,741,483) 7. Valpo ($2,666,213), 8.Drake ($2,472,212), 9. Illinois State ($2,452,961), 10. Missouri State ($2,279,917), 11. S.I.U. ($2,241,413), 12. Murray State ($2,218,712), 13. Indiana State ($1,832,975), 14. Northern Kentucky ($1,623,294), 15. Omaha ($1,288,481).

In either of the categories we fit in well.  I also like what Mo State's President said about the MVC being a "basketball conference".  We are a "basketball school" and that conference would be a perfect fit for us.

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Old Titan

I have been on record for years as saying The Valley presidents would never extend an invitation to ORU, based in no small part due to Creighton's president saying something to the effect of "over his dead body" (he didn't like evangelicals).

Now, Creighton is gone to the Big East, so maybe that's not the issue it once was, but I still think it's highly unlikely ORU is on The Valley's radar, for the variety of reasons mentioned.

But, what do I know:  I'm also the one who swore up and down Mike Carter would retire before he would ever agree to fire Scott Sutton, and we all saw how accurate that turned out to be... :doh:

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ORUJason

I would absolutely love an invite to the MVC.  Back when Gene Stephenson was at Wichita State (former legendary baseball coach) he spoke positively about ORU and actually lobbied (to a degree in media interviews) for ORU to be considered for the MVC.  The stability of ORU (both financial and otherwise) over the last 10 years could definitely improve our chance to be considered.

MVCFan makes a lot of good points and we have had (apparently) a good working relationship with Missouri State over the last several years.  Tulsa is a significant market, and with its past history with the MVC, it seems like a good fit.  I wonder how big of an issue it would be that ORU does not have softball.

The new tennis/track and field complex combined with the long term success of the baseball program and the clear commitment to basketball demonstrated by paying the buyout to Scott Sutton and hiring coach Mills should demonstrate ORUs commitment to athletic success.  The increase of nearly 1000 students in annual enrollment (over the last 10 years) also demonstrates long term stability for the university.  I wonder if Mike Carter has been given the green light to pursue the MVC bid at this point.

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91jack
1 hour ago, ORU82 said:

The attendance stats are for 2016 per the NCAA.    As for attendance it would go as follows:  9. ORU (3,317)

I have read that ORU is tops in the Summit League in attendance and I see that 3317/game is the number that you have listed.  

I was curious as to when ORU played SDSU as to what the attendance was in both Tulsa and Bookings so I looked at the box score at the SDSU site.  They say there were 3,917 fans in Brookings and 2,812 fans in Tulsa.  

That got me looking at some of the other ORU games.  Southeastern Okla (2068) exhibit., Rogers State (2653), Tulsa (4230), John Brown (2220), Little Rock (2850), Richmond (2735), SDSU (2812), IUPUI (2595), USD (2401), Omaha (3048), IPFW (2534), Denver (2464), Western Illinois (3040) and NDSU (???).  

I didn't see an attendance for the NDSU game.  Tulsa had 4,230 fans and the rest had attendances that were below that average.  

I'm not saying that any other school does much better at recording attendance.  Do you count tickets sold or butts in the seats?  Do you count players, coaches, cheerleaders and ushers?  I'm sure there is a way it should be done but I don't know what it is.  I'm not trying to start anything but I was just curious so I thought I would point this out.

1 hour ago, ORU82 said:

 

 

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ORUalum
1 hour ago, fensket33% said:

I'm not saying that any other school does much better at recording attendance.  Do you count tickets sold or butts in the seats?  Do you count players, coaches, cheerleaders and ushers?  I'm sure there is a way it should be done but I don't know what it is.  I'm not trying to start anything but I was just curious so I thought I would point this out.

 

I think we've been thru this a thousand times -- Season tickets sold + single game tickets sold for that game + student/faculty passes used for that game

it is not a butts in seats count.......

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ORU82

Correct Alum, and the same measuring stick is used for everyone in the NCAA D-I report. 

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91jack
25 minutes ago, ORUalum said:

I think we've been thru this a thousand times -- Season tickets sold + single game tickets sold for that game + student/faculty passes used for that game

it is not a butts in seats count.......

Thanks!  I saw that and was curious.

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okiesooner

Oruparentlurker asked what valpo has done?  

remember this is a basketball driven Conference....

valpo dominated the summit for years.  The ten years between 95 and 05 the crusaders won it 8 times.  Valpo outgrew the Dii promotion league and joined the HL.  At that time the HL on several occasions had at large bids.  Valpo spent 10 years in the HL and won the league 5 times. 

Again mvc is basketball driven and second is academics.  I don't know where oru ranks amongst the us news but that the most common system used. Valpo ranks 4 for liberal arts schools in the Midwest.  Oru is a liberal arts university as well.  Valpo joins drake Evansville and Bradley all private liberal arts schools acedmiy ranked in the top 5 of the Midwest.  I don't have the time or I would look up oru.  Valpo basketball was one of 30 schools to have a perfect apr thus earning NCAA money for the conference.  

Oru facilities are light years ahead of valpo.  But that's not what it's about.  Just thought I would answer the question "what has valpo done"

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ORUParentLurker
1 hour ago, okiesooner said:

Oruparentlurker asked what valpo has done?  

remember this is a basketball driven Conference....

valpo dominated the summit for years.  The ten years between 95 and 05 the crusaders won it 8 times.  Valpo outgrew the Dii promotion league and joined the HL.  At that time the HL on several occasions had at large bids.  Valpo spent 10 years in the HL and won the league 5 times. 

Again mvc is basketball driven and second is academics.  I don't know where oru ranks amongst the us news but that the most common system used. Valpo ranks 4 for liberal arts schools in the Midwest.  Oru is a liberal arts university as well.  Valpo joins drake Evansville and Bradley all private liberal arts schools acedmiy ranked in the top 5 of the Midwest.  I don't have the time or I would look up oru.  Valpo basketball was one of 30 schools to have a perfect apr thus earning NCAA money for the conference.  

Oru facilities are light years ahead of valpo.  But that's not what it's about.  Just thought I would answer the question "what has valpo done"

Yeah I figured Valpo's distinguished basketball history has to count for something.  I think every school has strengths that can be highlighted.  I could easily say ORU outclasses Valpo in baseball and market size.  Its not like Valpo has been a Gonzaga like mid-major juggernaut.  In fact, looking at the MVC as a whole... the only program I would consider a perennial winner is Northern Iowa.  They lost Creigton, Butler and now Wichita.  Indiana State and Evansville have great history but haven't been terribly successful recently. 

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okiesooner

Agreed every school has strenghs and can be highlighted.  I also agree oru outclasses valpo in baseball and probably every other sport not named basketball or softball.  Oru also has better facilities as stated. 

But I will repeat myself, it's about basketball and academics. 

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Old Titan

I think we've been thru this a thousand times -- Season tickets sold + single game tickets sold for that game + student/faculty passes used for that game

it is not a butts in seats count.......

Hey, ORUBlue82:  I seem to recall utilizing a somewhat less scientific method of calculating attendance when completing the box scores after each game, don't you?? LOL

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TrueBlue82

I believe our approach was every bit as (or more) accurate than the "new math" used today! :smile-open-mouth:

Although I readily admit that some of the attendance counts for baseball games at JLJ included numerous junebugs!

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mvfcfan

I've been doing some thinking on this and why exactly did Oral Roberts leave the Southland to go back to the Summit League? The Southland makes more sense and even if ORU can't get in the MVC (like I'm hoping) I think you guys could still go back there. If/when Ft Wayne leaves to go to the Horizon League the Summit League will be down to 5 baseball schools, and I'm pretty sure you need 6 for an auto bid. The only school out there with baseball that would probably join the league is Chicago State. North Dakota doesn't have baseball and  UMKC, if they were to come back, doesn't either.

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Old Titan
10 hours ago, mvfcfan said:

I've been doing some thinking on this and why exactly did Oral Roberts leave the Southland to go back to the Summit League? The Southland makes more sense and even if ORU can't get in the MVC (like I'm hoping) I think you guys could still go back there. If/when Ft Wayne leaves to go to the Horizon League the Summit League will be down to 5 baseball schools, and I'm pretty sure you need 6 for an auto bid. The only school out there with baseball that would probably join the league is Chicago State. North Dakota doesn't have baseball and  UMKC, if they were to come back, doesn't either.

Check out the "Fort Wayne To The Horizon League?" thread for some spirited give-and-take on the Southland vs. Summit argument. 

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ORUalum
11 hours ago, mvfcfan said:

I've been doing some thinking on this and why exactly did Oral Roberts leave the Southland to go back to the Summit League? The Southland makes more sense and even if ORU can't get in the MVC (like I'm hoping) I think you guys could still go back there. If/when Ft Wayne leaves to go to the Horizon League the Summit League will be down to 5 baseball schools, and I'm pretty sure you need 6 for an auto bid. The only school out there with baseball that would probably join the league is Chicago State. North Dakota doesn't have baseball and  UMKC, if they were to come back, doesn't either.

“We are appreciative of our time in the Southland Conference and enjoy our friendships and competition with its outstanding member institutions,” ORU athletic director Mike Carter said in the statement.

“When the Southland Conference expanded to 14 teams, some of our primary objectives in joining the Southland, such as improving travel costs and developing rivalries with selected schools, are no longer possible to achieve.

...

The Southland swelled to a 14-team conference this season with the additions of Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, New Orleans and Abilene Christian. After expansion to 14 members, it was determined that the Southland would no longer play a round-robin basketball schedule.

 
The Southland has a rich football tradition and three members (Southeastern Louisiana, McNeese State and Sam Houston State) were among 24 participants in this season’s FCS playoffs.

Football is not a sport under the The Summit League umbrella. For that reason, the league could be a better fit for ORU, which does not have a football program.

ORU was among candidates to join a basketball-driven league, the Missouri Valley Conference, when Creighton announced last year it was leaving the MVC.

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