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Old Titan

Fort Wayne To The Horizon League?

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ORUTerry

Got this interview with the league commissioner (Tom Douple) off the Bisonville (NDSU) message board:

 

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ORU82

According to the NCAA website, the average home attendance for the 2016-17 year is as follows:  ORU - 3,317; SDSU - 2,781; NDSU - 2,778; USD - 1,873 and UND - 1850.  As for over all men's basketball athletic budgets for the 2015-16 year according the U.S. Department of Education it is as follows:  Denver - $3,361,111; ORU - $2,741,482; UND - $1,579,108; SDSU - $1,443,001; NDSU - $1,417,450 and USD - $1,156,551.

I also agree that the interview with Commissioner Douple came across pretty weak, at least to me.  That coupled with OT's statement above that the Horizon was still on the hunt for additional teams did not leave me with a lot of confidence in the Summit.  If you know of something OT, please feel free to share.

Terry, without listening to the entire broadcast what was the gist of what the Commissioner had to say?

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ORUalum

Here's another interview w/Sioux Falls station....

 

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ORUTerry

Not encouraged by our commissioner apparently being surprised by IUPUI's move to leave. Not clear he has a plan or is working towards a good plan. Hope I'm wrong. 

There are rumors that the WAC is looking to expand. 

We should be talking with:

Northern Colorado 

Grand Canyon 

New Mexico State

UMKC

at the least....

 

  • Upvote 1

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ORU82

I just listened to the Commissioner's interview on KWSN in Sioux Falls.  That did not leave me feeling really confident the League has a plan.  I appreciate the fact he likes to play his cards close to the vest, but in all honesty, I really took nothing positive away except for his "trust me". 

I then listened on the same station to an interview they did today with Dom Izzo of WDAY in Fargo.  That really put things into perspective in the sense that perhaps we should be working actively on "Plan B" just in case IPFW bolts for the Horizon as well. He also discussed the possibility that UNO could leave which would effectively end the Summit.  Apparently the good people in Fargo are worried about the collapse of the League as well, and it was his suggestion to start working on "Plan B".

The last thing talked about on both interviews was bringing Augustana up from D-II.  As Izzo pointed out, even if Augustana started the process to make the move to D-I, it would take five (5) years.  That does us no good.  Secondly, is there not someone better than Augustana that we could look at for expansion?

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ORUTerry

Douple does not impress. They need to be very proactive/aggressive. Hopefully the AD's are involved. 

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ORUalum

a couple things on scheduling from those interviews

  • the conf sched will not be re-done for 2017-18
  • teams had stadium issues and wanted to fill the lost dates themselves
  • ORU lost two Saturday home games
  • the league will waive the "only 2 non-D1 games" rule
  • the league already had a 5 year league sched they had put together ---- WHY????:huh:

 

completely agree w/others assessment --- Douple does not project confidence and has zero charisma.  He did not sound that interested in bringing back UMKC and like he would rather go the transitioning D1 route again.

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Dr. Cornelius
1 hour ago, ORUalum said:

completely agree w/others assessment --- Douple does not project confidence and has zero charisma.  He did not sound that interested in bringing back UMKC and like he would rather go the transitioning D1 route again.

UMKC should be the absolute last resort. They add nothing but easy wins in every sport.

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Old Titan

 

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Old Titan
1 hour ago, Dr. Cornelius said:

UMKC should be the absolute last resort. They add nothing but easy wins in every sport.

UMKC more than held their own in men's basketball during the Michael Watson days in the Mid-Con, and their tennis program has traditionally been very good.

But, even if Doc is right re: the other sports, UMKC represents one of the few (the only?) potential Summit League prospects that's a reasonable drive for ORU athletes, their families, and Golden Eagle fans. 

Plus, it's simply a great place to visit, and an even better place from which to recruit.

I would accept them on geography alone.

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Old Titan
20 hours ago, ORU82 said:

According to the NCAA website, the average home attendance for the 2016-17 year is as follows:  ORU - 3,317; SDSU - 2,781; NDSU - 2,778; USD - 1,873 and UND - 1850.  As for over all men's basketball athletic budgets for the 2015-16 year according the U.S. Department of Education it is as follows:  Denver - $3,361,111; ORU - $2,741,482; UND - $1,579,108; SDSU - $1,443,001; NDSU - $1,417,450 and USD - $1,156,551.

I also agree that the interview with Commissioner Douple came across pretty weak, at least to me.  That coupled with OT's statement above that the Horizon was still on the hunt for additional teams did not leave me with a lot of confidence in the Summit.  If you know of something OT, please feel free to share.

Terry, without listening to the entire broadcast what was the gist of what the Commissioner had to say?

All I know about Horizon expansion is what's written in those articles.

Here's something I AM pretty confident about:  ORU's home attendance figures (going by your numbers above) are alternative facts, pure and simple.

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Old Titan
17 hours ago, ORUTerry said:

Not encouraged by our commissioner apparently being surprised by IUPUI's move to leave. Not clear he has a plan or is working towards a good plan. Hope I'm wrong.

I'm guessing that his surprise lies not in the Horizon stealing yet another Summit school, but rather that the school was IUPUI instead of IPFW or Omaha, and that it's immediate, not next year.

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ORU82

Argue with the NCAA all you want OT.  The attendance figures came from them.

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UNDfan

Greeting from a UND Fan.  Thought you should know the following, but NDSU and SDSU fans claim it isn't happening.

UND will be the first school from the Big Sky, but not the last.  Montana, Montana St, EWU, and Idaho also plan to join as soon as IPFW and W Ill leave.  The Summit League will be a football league eventually.  The Horizon is talking about as many as 16 schools ( Detroit News has stories) so there is still some Summit schools to leave.

The Horizon has talked with IPFW, SIU-E, Robert Morris, Omaha, UMKC and maybe even ORU.  It wants urban schools, so maybe ORU fits.

ORU can join the WAC, stay in the Summit and put baseball elsewhere, go Horizon or MVC (rather doubt ORU will be invited) or go back to the Southland.

The Summit will be a Northern Tier conference in the NW.  That has always been a dream for NoDak and Montana schools going way back.  Idaho and EWU will join because they don't want to lose the Montanas and Idaho thinks that new conference can be FBS eventually.

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Dr. Cornelius
2 hours ago, UNDfan said:

The Summit will be a Northern Tier conference in the NW.  That has always been a dream for NoDak and Montana schools going way back.  Idaho and EWU will join because they don't want to lose the Montanas and Idaho thinks that new conference can be FBS eventually.

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oruvoice
13 hours ago, UNDfan said:

Greeting from a UND Fan.  Thought you should know the following, but NDSU and SDSU fans claim it isn't happening.

UND will be the first school from the Big Sky, but not the last.  Montana, Montana St, EWU, and Idaho also plan to join as soon as IPFW and W Ill leave.  The Summit League will be a football league eventually.  The Horizon is talking about as many as 16 schools ( Detroit News has stories) so there is still some Summit schools to leave.

The Horizon has talked with IPFW, SIU-E, Robert Morris, Omaha, UMKC and maybe even ORU.  It wants urban schools, so maybe ORU fits.

ORU can join the WAC, stay in the Summit and put baseball elsewhere, go Horizon or MVC (rather doubt ORU will be invited) or go back to the Southland.

The Summit will be a Northern Tier conference in the NW.  That has always been a dream for NoDak and Montana schools going way back.  Idaho and EWU will join because they don't want to lose the Montanas and Idaho thinks that new conference can be FBS eventually.

I fear your post has a lot of truth in it. Despite the fact that it won't be well received here...

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UNDfan
37 minutes ago, oruvoice said:

I fear your post has a lot of truth in it. Despite the fact that it won't be well received here...

Just thought you guys needed to hear truth rather than the delusional garbage on the other Dakota boards.

When your have access to truth, better decisions flow out of it.  The Summit is in a time of transition, and things will not be the same.  Your admin has decisions to make.

IPFW wants out so bad ( read yesterdays Fort Wayne paper).  Augustana (SD) a former DII rival of all the Dakotas wants in now. The interest by the Montanas, Idaho and EWU has not been publicly revealed yet, but think it's just a matter of time.

Don't think Douple has a clue that big changes are coming,  UND had major issues with him in the past.

Because baseball and mens soccer are so critical to the league's mbb autobid, the addition of football as a sport can instantly change the dynamics and save the autobid.  Football leagues don't have to have baseball and mens soccer - see the Big Sky for an example.  The loss of IPFW and even W Illinois will put the Summit is on life support and only the Montanas and Idaho can save it.  There won't be a choice except to accept them.

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ORUalum

I don't see ORU, WIU, or IPFW having a lot of other options.  I could see Denver with their large market being looked at by other leagues.

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BlueGold
On 6/28/2017 at 4:49 PM, Dr. Cornelius said:

ORU better start looking for a new conference home tomorrow. The interview with Commissioner Douple didn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Hopefully we were already looking elsewhere or were having conversations before IUPUI announced they were leaving.  I have no confidence in Douple, and little confidence in our athletic administration to make the right decision(s) when it comes to our conference affiliation.  It's been mentioned that we have few options, and some of the ones that we do have don't have much appeal to me:

1. We could stay in the Summit and let things shake out, and hopefully have a backup plan (or more than one), although what is our appeal to other conferences that might be wanting to add to their membership?  This is an open question, I'm not saying we don't add value to either the Summit or to any other conference that we might end up in, just looking at what our perceived value is or would be to other conferences.  Obviously we bring a pretty good tradition of success and competitiveness overall with our athletic program, and certainly the additions of the new track and tennis courts enhance our facilities overall, although some of them are older and not up to par with where they should be right now, i.e. the Aerobics Center for volleyball.  We have also shown that we are willing to spend some money on athletics, i.e. our recent athletic budgets, although I've heard we are scaling and cutting back budget-wise in terms of staff and other ancillaries.  We are in an urban location with a decent television market ranking (in the high 50s to the low 60s in most rankings I've seen recently) that has an airport that can handle jet traffic, and Tulsa does have a good amount of hotel room space and can support large gatherings, as it did recently when the city hosted the NCAA Men's Basketball Regional.  But you'd also have to believe, and I've read some things recently where people out there still look at ORU as some sort of haven for religious fanatics and weirdos, and you wonder how much of that goes into the thinking of conference administrators, etc?  I think the option of staying in the Summit appeals less and less to me the more I think about it (I've never been a fan of the Summit, though) and the more I read posts like those from our friend UNDfan.  Doesn't seem that the Summit has much of a future as the conference that we've come to know and operate within, especially if Fort Wayne and WIU leave and there is a westward expansion all the way potentially out to almost the West Coast.

2. We could explore rejoining the Southland.  And why would they even consider taking us back?  What do we offer them now, especially since we don't have football, and we've already 'betrayed' them by leaving after just two years.

3. Join another conference like the Horizon or the WAC.  The Horizon might offer the best fit for us geographically, and there are some former Mid-Con/Summit schools in that league right now.  The WAC has two former Mid-Con/Summit schools in UMKC and Chicago State, but also has New Mexico State and Grand Canyon (travel and distance disadvantages with these two have already been discussed by myself and others already) and other schools like Utah Valley, UT Rio Grande, Cal State Bakersfield and Seattle that almost definitely present even greater challenges in terms of travel and distance than NMSU and GCU.  Joining the WAC could be a potential nightmare, but if we're put in a position where we don't see us being able to stay in the Summit, well, the WAC it could be.

Needless to say, things have only just begun to get interesting.

 

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UNDfan

For the coming year, this is how I see things shaking out:

MVC takes Milwaukee and Murray St to get to 12.

The Horizon gets back to 10 with IPFW, then goes to 12 with Robert Morris and SIU-E.  The Horizon might go further west to get to 14 and 16 later.

As said before, Montana, Mt St, Idaho and EWU jump to the Summit and make it a football league that has FBS aspirations.  Denver and Omaha probably stay, because they are hockey schools first like UND.  But don't know what they would do about men's soccer and  baseball.

The WAC is not looking bad at that point.  GCU is gaining basketball strength, and Cal Baptist joins shortly, Seattle is private so it has major markets and a faith element.  Chicago St only has one year left on its contract with the WAC and is in enormous financial problems (only had 86 freshmen last year, most of them athletes).  UMKC needs a travel partner.

The choice comes down to flying to Montana and Idaho, or flying to Seattle and LA, or flying to Detroit and Indy.  You have a choice which is always good.  

Maybe the OVC conference would be interested too, as they might lose at least Murray St and SIU-E. The closest school now is SE Mo St.

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ORUJason

Apparently the Horizon League is considered to be a continuation of the original Midwestern Cities Collegiate Conference from the 70s and 80s, of which ORU was a member from 1979-1987, in much the same way that the Summit League is considered to be a continuation of the Mid-Continent Conference.  In fact, the article from the Detroit News that was linked to earlier in this thread lists ORU as a former Horizon League member.  

But when you look at the current geographic footprint for the Horizon League, it is very tight and IPFW is right in the middle.  Oklahoma looks to be way outside the footprint of the Horizon League.  The article also mentions that the Horizon League, with the loss of Valparaiso, is currently at the minimum number of institutions with baseball teams that is required in order to maintain an automatic bid to an NCAA Regional.  I can certainly see IPFW being invited to the Horizon league in the near future due to their geographic footprint and the fact that they have a baseball team.  I would honestly think that the Horizon League could stop at 11 teams if they wanted to in that scenario, or possibly add a 12th in order to have a more uniform travel schedule and increased stability.  While Western Illinois could be considered to be a 12th team, even they are somewhat outside of the geographic footprint, but of course much closer than ORU (and they also have a baseball team).

The Detroit news article also mentions that IPFW is splitting into 2 different universities next year.  An article from Michigan's News Channel explains the split and says that IPW will have the nursing, dental, and medical imaging schools while PFW will take over the rest of the former IPFW academic offerings.  I have to assume that as far as the Summit League is concerned, IPFW will become PFW.  This split will take effect on July 1, 2018.

I wonder if the Horizon League would even consider ORU as a possible 12th member (if you assume they will eventually add IPFW).  I wonder if ORU would be interested. Geographically, the Missouri Valley conference represents a better fit for ORU, but if I remember correctly, ORU would have to add softball in order to meet the minimum athletic offerings required by the MVC.  Is ORU willing to do what it takes to position us to be considered by the MVC?

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UNDfan

http://bisonmedia.areavoices.com/now-what-for-the-summit-league/

An NDSU media person talks dissolving the Summit when IPFW leaves, which will come this year, as their are few options.

Football will be the Summit's salvation, but it needs the Montanas and Idaho.

 

ORU will have options, but you'll need to pair up with UMKC for the WAC or Horizon.

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Old Titan
On 6/29/2017 at 5:06 PM, ORU82 said:

Argue with the NCAA all you want OT.  The attendance figures came from them.

At some level, ORU's home attendance is being over-reported. 

There simply aren't that many ticket buyers & students coming to the games anymore, nor buying season tickets, nor receiving "comp" tickets, etc.

To "average" 3,317 per game, there would have to be as many home games with 4,317 "attending" as there were games with 2,317, and/or 5317-vs-1317 games, etc.

I just don't see it anymore, even if no-shows among the students, season-ticket holders, and comps are figured into the equation. 

Sorry...

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Old Titan

The stream-of-consciousness predictions of "UNDfan" remind me a little of the following classic cartoon:

 

amoh-smallv3.jpg

There are a LOT of "miracles" that would have to occur for ORU to be left crying in the corner without any dance partners, not the least of which includes efforts by the Missouri Valley Football Conference to maintain their status quo, Title IX implications for all schools involved, travel and recruiting budgets, existing and potential TV contracts, unpredictable university presidents who wield the REAL power on conference-alignment decisions like this, etc.

Overall, what I actually sense in these posts is the underlying contempt of a fan and a program that was a late invite to a party (the Summit League) they really didn't want to go to in the first place, but felt obligated to attend to avoid being a Dakota wallflower themselves.  Then, once they've arrived, they waste little time making it known they wish they were somewhere else.

Really makes you wonder why folks like that don't get party invitations in the first place, doesn't it? |(

P.S.  One thing IS for sure, though:  it's obvious we have yet another Dakota fan base that's wasted no time invading the ORU forum, if for no other reason than to cast shade on their northern rivals' "delusional garbage".

Always nice to provide a neutral site for their family squabbling, eh?  #GetOffOurLawn

 

 

 

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